ISIL and what can be done for Middle-East

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_St ... the_Levant
http://qz.com/246923/why-isil-is-worse- ... me-before/


I am an advocate for not forcing change where change cannot be achieved organically but in situations where the mistake was already done it's hard to find backing away as a solution anymore.

The situation in Middle-East did not start in the last 2 decades... but more than 2000 years ago and since then it never stopped. In the last century external forces have tried to put their foot in middle-east and change it by their own agenda. All tries have failed and resulted in bloody retaliations. Middle-East is a sad story because it's a bloody story that grew from ignorance, both internal and external. The question is what can be done now? Backing away is not a solution because there's already fire and in a world which is heading towards globalism and aspires to world peace, it's really hard and arguably unethical to not take a stand against such atrocities.

So what can be done? You can't bring change there. Not yet. But how can you improve the situation? How can you eradicate the disease? Is it even possible to eradicate it? If you can't eradicate then how do you control it? How do you protect the majority of people who are generally innocent? How can the West help the society there? What can be done about ISIL and what can be done afterwards?
Last edited by RIFA on August 21st, 2014, 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Last edited by RIFA on August 12th, 2014, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The reason I’m an adamant Pan-Arabist is because I believe it will deal with a lot of those external and internal issues. I believe, wholeheartedly, unity is our strength. The US can invade Iraq because it is small and weak. The US can have military bases in the Gulf countries because they are small and weak. Israel can fly into Lebanese and Syrian airspaces whenever they feel like it because they are small and weak, and can bomb the Palestinians on a whim because they are small and weak. Its like we learned absolute nothing from the Crusades or the Mongol invasions. It took strong unity to fight off those attacks.

And also, because I see it as the only way for us to stop killing each other. Shias hate Sunnis, Sunnis hate Shias, Maronites hate Muslims, Druze hate Maronites, and so on. It's a never ending loop of bloodshed and hatred. If everyone could see themselves as Arabs first and foremost, the endless killings and hatred could be stopped. Arab is a wide term, one that extends way beyond political borders. It encompass many different race, ethnicity and religion. Today, many of those who identify as Arab are Christians, Jews, Sudanese, Somalis, Armenian, Kurdish, Berber, Circassian and many more. Arab doesn't mean that you necessarily have to have an affiliation with Islam. Arabic culture IS Middle Eastern culture.


In regards to immediate action, I don't like the idea of relying on the West for help in any sorts nor do I trust them. The West have never looked at any situation in the Middle East from a humanitarian standpoint, they have always primarily focused on how best to take advantage of the situation for their benefit. I’d much rather see Arabs getting together to fight ISIS.

It’s realistically possible for the Arab League to be more physically involved, they could launch a large scale peacekeeping mission into Syria and Iraq. Africa, who are far less internally stable than any of Gulf nations had the collective backbone to do the right thing and send troops to Somalia and as a result the AU (African Union) Peacekeepers are becoming actively involved and producing results in unison. It’s not a stretch for every Arab nation to send a few thousands troops each, or at least contribute what they can to the effort.

Every situation will have high casualties, but it is in our best interest to choose one that is ideal for our region, something we will ALL benefit from. I’m sorry to say, in that scenario, no one sect should be put as the first priority. Of course I do sympathize with those suffering, the Christians, the Shias, the Kurds, all the minorities of Iraq and Syria but as long we think we have 'identities' to protect, we will always remain fucked. We have to think bigger than that.

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Thank you for the answer.

Yes, the West never really had strong humanitarian intentions down in the middle-east. However I won't really generalize it that much because there were and still are humanitarian actions taken in the middle-east because of the western help.

I think the west can help, but only if they look beyond the numbers of oil production, drug production, and agriculture. I think the west can easily raise the standard of life in middle-east and can help middle-east to "modernize" it's society. The issue here is how you approach middle-east. And there's been very very few decent attempts, and to my knowledge, those didn't come from a western political initiative but from western corps or non-profit organizations. Basically... simple people understood better how to deal with the middle east than the governments because the governments still look at middle-east like it's something they could grab whenever they want for their sole benefit.

I'm actually rooting for unity in middle-east. I too would like to see arabs uniting against such threats as ISIL which obviously cannot cause any good whatsover and is not just toxic but a complete scam. However, I think Arabs have a tough times getting over their 2000+ years of fighting with each other. It's like they can't get out of that damned cycle (for Europe for example it was 2 world wars). I wonder what it takes to break the cycle... to make them see that it's all pointless and that nobody forbids them to live happily on their land.

I also want to leave this clip here. Makes a point.


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Updated The Islamic State with Part 4: Christians in the Caliphate

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RIFA wrote: I think the west can help, but only if they look beyond the numbers of oil production, drug production, and agriculture. I think the west can easily raise the standard of life in middle-east and can help middle-east to "modernize" it's society.
I'm curious, from your understanding of history what would you define as "modernize"? Or to put it another way, do you see modernity as an objective state of progress inevitably achieved with the advance of science, medicine, politics, etc. or do you see it as tied in with the unique experience of Western/European nations?
The issue here is how you approach middle-east. And there's been very very few decent attempts, and to my knowledge, those didn't come from a western political initiative but from western corps or non-profit organizations. Basically... simple people understood better how to deal with the middle east than the governments because the governments still look at middle-east like it's something they could grab whenever they want for their sole benefit.
I agree with you on the aspect that as human beings, some of us will always feel obligated to help those in need, but I see that as a separate act when I generally mean the West. There are many other organizations or individuals, who aren’t part of the West who do help the Middle East in a similar manner.

As long as this region contains a lot of resources that other regions want, continuous tampering and foreign involvement will continue. It's that simple really. France was forced out by Algerian and Syrian persistence. England and Russia were forced out by the US. The US will be forced out by China, India or whoever else. Our region thrived when no one wanted us, and stopped thriving when the Mongols and Crusaders wanted us.

I'm actually rooting for unity in middle-east. I too would like to see arabs uniting against such threats as ISIL which obviously cannot cause any good whatsover and is not just toxic but a complete scam.
I've spoken to lots and lots and lots of Arabs over the years and I've noticed a few things. Virtually all Arabs welcome the idea of a union but they all have some reservation about it. In the Gulf no one wants their region to be flooded by millions of other Arabs, or their oil wealth to be stolen. In Egypt young people are afraid of Nasserists because he was attached to the military, was quite undemocratic, and in the end an authoritarian leader with socialist leanings. So you find a lot of people who like the idea of unity, but don't want the party, or don't want the state acquisitions of businesses, or don't want the military in power, etc. What is the option for them? Well, nothing. My Egyptian friends who aren't self professed pan-arabists simply see it as a more long-term goal. I often hear "let's first sort the bigger problems in the country and then we can worry about that."

In the same way, there are millions of youths all over the Levant who like the idea of pan-arabism, but they don't want Baathism. They don't want the party, the dictators, the 'socialism'.

Lastly, you have the jaded group. This is the group, like one of my Lebanese uncles, who used to be a staunch arabists. Now they resent other arabs and believe that their only focus should be restoring their own country, and then worry about unity 100 years from now, or whatever.

So basically, I see, two obvious problems here;

- The lack of a fresh arabist party or ideology that exist today. These old tired dogmas have elbowed out all the competition and have a monopoly on arabism today.

- Nasserism and Baathism being associated with Arabism. These parties failure to achieve any real long-term goal and unity have created stigma and fear of Arabism. I mean, the mere fact that a movement called the Islamic State of Iraq and Sham can exist today despite 100 years of patriotic government propaganda in both Iraq and Syria shows how miserably these nation-states have failed to supplant ethnic and sectarian identities.

What the Arab people need is a viable alternative. We need to create and establish an Arabist movement that acknowledges those older movements, but is more in tune with our needs and not beholden to their faults. Leaflets, banners, graffiti, internet groups and sites that call for: Unity, Democracy, Transparency, Social Justice, Education, Equality

I've tried to get some my Arab friends involved in some stuff. But people of my generation are too busy with school or looking for jobs.
However, I think Arabs have a tough times getting over their 2000+ years of fighting with each other. It's like they can't get out of that damned cycle (for Europe for example it was 2 world wars). I wonder what it takes to break the cycle... to make them see that it's all pointless and that nobody forbids them to live happily on their land.

I mean, let’s look at this way - you as a European probably know the level of death and destruction that the Europeans wrought on one another for centuries. Just before the European Union was formed the Germans were still gassing Jews and believing they were the übermensch. They were literally raping other people to Germanise them. They were categorising human beings into levels of purity. Italians were trying to conquer Libya and recreate the Roman Empire under Mussolini. Spain was under the fascist dictator Francisco Franco. Finland was destroyed from wars against Russia and Germany. France was fighting brutal wars in Algeria and Vietnam trying to keep the French empire alive. Hundreds of thousands of French people lost their lives to keep the colonies. They were killing and torturing Algerians and cutting off their penises. They even considered dropping nuclear weapons on Vietnam to stop the independence movement as late as 1954 at Dien Bien Phu. And after all that they united.

Europeans speak many different national languages, have different histories and movements, have different cultures and national tales, and lastly, have a long history of killing each other. Meanwhile we have a bunch of Arab countries, most of whom have spent most of the last 2000 years ruled together by the same empire. None of whom were involved in the creation of their own borders whatsoever. Same language, largely the same religion, largely the same historical figures. We listen to the same music, watch the same shows, have the same superstitions. It really is not farfetched to imagine Arabs uniting, if we wanted to do it we could do it quite easily. It wouldn't happen overnight. It would require treaties and step by step loosening of restrictions. But in my opinion, it's very possible and not difficult to do at all

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cooldude wrote:do you see modernity as an objective state of progress inevitably achieved with the advance of science, medicine, politics, etc.
this.
cooldude wrote: "let's first sort the bigger problems in the country and then we can worry about that."
and isn't that exactly the kind of attitude groups like ISIS profit from?

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RIFA wrote:
cooldude wrote:do you see modernity as an objective state of progress inevitably achieved with the advance of science, medicine, politics, etc.
this.
cooldude wrote: "let's first sort the bigger problems in the country and then we can worry about that."
and isn't that exactly the kind of attitude groups like ISIS profit from?
In many aspects, yes it is, but I do agree that things like education, literacy, poverty, militancy need to be tackled first. Education is an important process to democracy. Education teaches us history. History teaches us about the consequences of foreign interventions and nationalism and tribalism. These consequences teach us how to demand more from ourselves and our society. Though, what many people need to understand is that unity and democracy is not an end in itself.

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Won't say anything else apart from RIP JAMES FOLEY. Holy fuck.

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Yes it is sad. But that footage is pretty uncharacteristic to these groups.

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