Master Virgo wrote:Defend a girl against a guy, get accused of being sexist.

lol I did not call you a sexist, just thought the comment was at first, it could of been worded better. I just thought you forgot to put a comma. One comment does not make someone a sexist obviously, I have made sexist comments on here and in real life. In a joking fashion but whatever.

Vader182 wrote:To Cilogy: I'd like to point out the gaping difference between wanting and even expecting feedback for your photos, and posting photos designed specifically to incite significant sexual attention, or however much sexual attention you can get from people on the internet. I dunno about you man, but I'd certainly include posting nude images on the internet for those purposes as, well, for those purposes. You're exchanging skin for praise and attention, which, when done to an extreme, which to my understanding she has in the past, some of the comments Keegan made can make sense. If in no other way, than at least linguistically.

So this is deserving of negativity and shaming? If chee was posting those pictures directly to that thread in NF then I can at least understand why that would be a problem, but she doesn't do that. It's just simply uncalled for.

Although I tend to specifically reject feminism for being a lesser sub-division of marxist philosophy (I tend to think promoting specific groups ends up being more detrimental for everybody than a universal effort to equalize other groups of the disempowered, not to mention the danger in going overboard), I'm not sure such a heated reaction to any of this is necessary.

I don't know nearly enough about Marxist philosophy, nor do I hold my pinky high enough in the air while drinking tea to actually debate that issue. However, you seriously can't accept the fact that feminism and other movements came about because the "universal effort" idea simply isn't enough or because they were necessary to specifically target certain types of prejudice and conventionality?

But otherwise, you're completely correct, I mean look at all the harm feminism has done:

















.

No. She posts them on a tumblr account and to a much wider audience, some of whom she knows are on here. Does that 'deserve' 'shaming'? I'm not sure most things 'deserve' 'shaming' at all. It usually causes way more harm than good, but that isn't the point. The point is that it probably isn't advisable anyway, because of the things I already mentioned that you didn't quote, so I'll assume you don't take issue with them.

And actually, yeah, feminism has done shitloads of damage. I'd argue the same for a lot of queer theory too. It alienates the people you probably want to 'convert' while also further separating your 'group' as a separate group in general. The goal should probably be intelligent assimilation while retaining core cultural and personal identifiers within the whole, not further bifurcating from the 'status quo' so to speak. Somebody fairly close to me in high school and college was one of the chief members of an on-campus gay club, and he later confessed to me all it did was piss people off, and if they went about things in a more diplomatic, and yes, marxist way, things probably would've went smoother. Anything that specifically attracts a lot of attention to you 'because you totally can!' is probably going to be perceived as immature and inflammatory to anyone that doesn't share your belief system. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but what I'm describing was more or less what finally allowed blacks to become (mostly) respected members of white society. It wasn't the crazy shit, it was pushing enough to make people question and re-think their behaviors, but never to the point they pissed people off. So, I'm just sayin', posting some of the things she has is bound to get the latter reaction.


-Vader

Vader182 wrote:No. She posts them on a tumblr account and to a much wider audience, some of whom she knows are on here. Does that 'deserve' 'shaming'? I'm not sure most things 'deserve' 'shaming' at all. It usually causes way more harm than good, but that isn't the point. The point is that it probably isn't advisable anyway, because of the things I already mentioned that you didn't quote, so I'll assume you don't take issue with them.

And actually, yeah, feminism has done shitloads of damage. I'd argue the same for a lot of queer theory too. It alienates the people you probably want to 'convert' while also further separating your 'group' as a separate group in general. The goal should probably be intelligent assimilation while retaining core cultural and personal identifiers within the whole, not further bifurcating from the 'status quo' so to speak. Somebody fairly close to me in high school and college was one of the chief members of an on-campus gay club, and he later confessed to me all it did was piss people off, and if they went about things in a more diplomatic, and yes, marxist way, things probably would've went smoother. Anything that specifically attracts a lot of attention to you 'because you totally can!' is probably going to be perceived as immature and inflammatory to anyone that doesn't share your belief system. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but what I'm describing was more or less what finally allowed blacks to become (mostly) respected members of white society. It wasn't the crazy shit, it was pushing enough to make people question and re-think their behaviors, but never to the point they pissed people off. So, I'm just sayin', posting some of the things she has is bound to get the latter reaction.


-Vader

To get attention sometimes you need to piss people off. I'm not applying that to Chee right now. Just your statement that it has done more harm then good.

Vader182 wrote:To Cilogy: I dunno about you man, but I'd certainly include posting nude images on the internet for those purposes as, well, for those purposes. You're exchanging skin for praise and attention, which, when done to an extreme, which to my understanding she has in the past, some of the comments Keegan made can make sense.
-Vader

:modesty:

more petrol on fire

i would like to see ladies opinion on this topic , if they can step forward .

Vader182 wrote:No. She posts them on a tumblr account and to a much wider audience, some of whom she knows are on here. Does that 'deserve' 'shaming'? I'm not sure most things 'deserve' 'shaming' at all. It usually causes way more harm than good, but that isn't the point. The point is that it probably isn't advisable anyway, because of the things I already mentioned that you didn't quote, so I'll assume you don't take issue with them.

Who cares if it isn't advisable? A lot of people post things like that on Tumblr for attention they otherwise don't get elsewhere. It was completely uncalled for to be negative about it, and no, Keegan's comments do not make sense, they sound like a rant. His intention was probably not to be sexist, but it is understandable why chee considered it sexist because the language he used, that's the point.

It sounds to me like you're willing to concede the fact that people will react in different ways when someone posts pics of themselves online because "it's the internet". However, you're not willing to concede the fact that people will also do things for attention, also because "it's the internet"?

And actually, yeah, feminism has done shitloads of damage. I'd argue the same for a lot of queer theory too. It alienates the people you probably want to 'convert' while also further separating your 'group' as a separate group in general. The goal should probably be intelligent assimilation while retaining core cultural and personal identifiers within the whole, not further bifurcating from the 'status quo' so to speak. Somebody fairly close to me in high school and college was one of the chief members of an on-campus gay club, and he later confessed to me all it did was piss people off, and if they went about things in a more diplomatic, and yes, marxist way, things probably would've went smoother. Anything that specifically attracts a lot of attention to you 'because you totally can!' is probably going to be perceived as immature and inflammatory to anyone that doesn't share your belief system. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but what I'm describing was more or less what finally allowed blacks to become (mostly) respected members of white society. It wasn't the crazy shit, it was pushing enough to make people question and re-think their behaviors, but never to the point they pissed people off. So, I'm just sayin', posting some of the things she has is bound to get the latter reaction.

I think what you take issue with is the more extreme elements of feminism, whose arguments even I don't understand. You are making a generalization though, and you're making it sound like feminists go around commit acts of violence and shit.

Leading movements like feminism in a way that pisses people off is sort of the point of the movement. If a movement is non-violent, it has to be something that is equal to or greater than the force that opposes it. That's the point of protest in general, it's loud, it's forceful, and it might cause over-correction. It's just the nature of societal change. What you're suggesting, this "intelligent assimilation" concept, would exist in an ideal world, where everyone thinks logically and is open to rational explanations. Where do you think things like feminism started? Mostly probably with women trying to make logical arguments, but guess what, people didn't listen or where too complacent to think it was important, so it required more attention.

I also can't fathom what "shitloads of damage" feminism has caused that isn't also some minor issue that people constantly whine about.

Cilogy wrote:

Vader182 wrote:No. She posts them on a tumblr account and to a much wider audience, some of whom she knows are on here. Does that 'deserve' 'shaming'? I'm not sure most things 'deserve' 'shaming' at all. It usually causes way more harm than good, but that isn't the point. The point is that it probably isn't advisable anyway, because of the things I already mentioned that you didn't quote, so I'll assume you don't take issue with them.

Who cares if it isn't advisable? A lot of people post things like that on Tumblr for attention they otherwise don't get elsewhere. It was completely uncalled for to be negative about it, and no, Keegan's comments do not make sense, they sound like a rant. His intention was probably not to be sexist, but it is understandable why chee considered it sexist because the language he used, that's the point.

It sounds to me like you're willing to concede the fact that people will react in different ways when someone posts pics of themselves online because "it's the internet". However, you're not willing to concede the fact that people will also do things for attention, also because "it's the internet"?

And actually, yeah, feminism has done shitloads of damage. I'd argue the same for a lot of queer theory too. It alienates the people you probably want to 'convert' while also further separating your 'group' as a separate group in general. The goal should probably be intelligent assimilation while retaining core cultural and personal identifiers within the whole, not further bifurcating from the 'status quo' so to speak. Somebody fairly close to me in high school and college was one of the chief members of an on-campus gay club, and he later confessed to me all it did was piss people off, and if they went about things in a more diplomatic, and yes, marxist way, things probably would've went smoother. Anything that specifically attracts a lot of attention to you 'because you totally can!' is probably going to be perceived as immature and inflammatory to anyone that doesn't share your belief system. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but what I'm describing was more or less what finally allowed blacks to become (mostly) respected members of white society. It wasn't the crazy shit, it was pushing enough to make people question and re-think their behaviors, but never to the point they pissed people off. So, I'm just sayin', posting some of the things she has is bound to get the latter reaction.

I think what you take issue with is the more extreme elements of feminism, whose arguments even I don't understand. You are making a generalization though, and you're making it sound like feminists go around commit acts of violence and shit.

Leading movements like feminism in a way that pisses people off is sort of the point of the movement. If a movement is non-violent, it has to be something that is equal to or greater than the force that opposes it. That's the point of protest in general, it's loud, it's forceful, and it might cause over-correction. It's just the nature of societal change. What you're suggesting, this "intelligent assimilation" concept, would exist in an ideal world, where everyone thinks logically and is open to rational explanations. Where do you think things like feminism started? Mostly probably with women trying to make logical arguments, but guess what, people didn't listen or where too complacent to think it was important, so it required more attention.

I also can't fathom what "shitloads of damage" feminism has caused that isn't also some minor issue that people constantly whine about.

When you told me I shouldn't care about people doing things that are bad ideas, I stopped reading. You know better, man.


-Vader

Vader182 wrote:

Cilogy wrote: Who cares if it isn't advisable? A lot of people post things like that on Tumblr for attention they otherwise don't get elsewhere. It was completely uncalled for to be negative about it, and no, Keegan's comments do not make sense, they sound like a rant. His intention was probably not to be sexist, but it is understandable why chee considered it sexist because the language he used, that's the point.

It sounds to me like you're willing to concede the fact that people will react in different ways when someone posts pics of themselves online because "it's the internet". However, you're not willing to concede the fact that people will also do things for attention, also because "it's the internet"?


I think what you take issue with is the more extreme elements of feminism, whose arguments even I don't understand. You are making a generalization though, and you're making it sound like feminists go around commit acts of violence and shit.

Leading movements like feminism in a way that pisses people off is sort of the point of the movement. If a movement is non-violent, it has to be something that is equal to or greater than the force that opposes it. That's the point of protest in general, it's loud, it's forceful, and it might cause over-correction. It's just the nature of societal change. What you're suggesting, this "intelligent assimilation" concept, would exist in an ideal world, where everyone thinks logically and is open to rational explanations. Where do you think things like feminism started? Mostly probably with women trying to make logical arguments, but guess what, people didn't listen or where too complacent to think it was important, so it required more attention.

I also can't fathom what "shitloads of damage" feminism has caused that isn't also some minor issue that people constantly whine about.

When you told me I shouldn't care about people don't things that are bad ideas, I stopped reading. You know better, man.


-Vader

Yes I do know better, I know that whatever chee is doing on Tumblr really doesn't really affect me in the slightest and it's certainly not deserving of any sort of shaming. As long as she knows the consequences of her actions, which I can promise you she does, then it's really not an issue worth discussing at length.

Number one:

Does that 'deserve' 'shaming'? I'm not sure most things 'deserve' 'shaming' at all.

Number two: The argument that 'well they aren't even harming anyone!" is a really bad one. It has nothing to do with the rightness of his or her actions, and when you do post 'attention grabbing things', well, they do just that- invite attention. They invite people like Keegan to say shit. Literally. Look, this is what I always said in high school. If I showed up in bright pink skin tight jeans, it might not be 'right' for people to kick my ass, but I'd certainly say it should be an assumed and expected event, so in that sense, I advocated that ass-kicking by doing something that's bound to rub some people the wrong way.

I'll come out and say it- it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people say inflammatory or 'loud' things, or 'do' super loud things, then say well nonono I'm totally not harming anybody! Well, fuck, you know? Use your head, and think of my above example.


-Vader