Ruth wrote: ↑

November 28th, 2019, 12:39 pm

No, it's a lot more complicated than that. And I'm by no means trying to defend MJ.

Would you say the same thing about Beyonce? Or any other black artist who is/was trying to appear more appealing to mainstream and/or white audiences to achieve success?

When the hatred of your people/culture has been so deeply rooted into the mindset of a country, to the point where its become a cultural feat of its own, why are we so surprised that at least some of these people will have internalized issues about it? They don't have to be "a disgrace" or maliciously anti-black to hold some troubling views about their own identities. This odd necessity to hold black people accountable for not being pro black enough is not a productive way to discuss the ways racism has permeated Western culture, imo. I look at it in a similar way I'd look to a black woman who was straightening her hair to "assimilate" and look "professional" enough to hold a fucking job, because natural black hair is seen as "dirty" and unprofessional. Would it be okay to say that woman hates herself or her race?

And I'm not saying MJ is not a case of internalized racism, because by all accounts it very much seems so, but it's also only very recent when we've become more comfortable with black artists being as unapologetic as possible about loving themselves. We love black art, but we don't love black artists who seem too unwelcoming to white people, so we've forced them to morph themselves into the kind of black artists all people love because they use their culture to entertain and love their culture, but not too much so that it seems bothersome. Also, I feel like it's a pretty established notion that MJ was very likely (very) mentally ill, so I guess that's also important to remember when discussing his troublesome views around his cultural/racial identity.

Also, why would black people hold onto protecting MJ? I mean, look at it this way. Black people, as in black people in America especially, don't nearly have enough people who have achieved such insane amounts of success worldwide. And then you have someone like him, and you are proud, and more willing to overlook the bad things (especially before they were even as known as they are now). For a culture so thoroughly dehumanized over the centuries, I do understand the collective need to have "your" people that can bring you a unifying sense of pride. My 2 cents lol.

p.s. this was all said with my personal feelings about him set aside. personally i cannot bring myself to listen to his music anymore

Master Virgo wrote: ↑

November 28th, 2019, 1:35 pm

Ruth wrote: ↑

November 28th, 2019, 12:39 pm

No, it's a lot more complicated than that. And I'm by no means trying to defend MJ.

Would you say the same thing about Beyonce? Or any other black artist who is/was trying to appear more appealing to mainstream and/or white audiences to achieve success?

When the hatred of your people/culture has been so deeply rooted into the mindset of a country, to the point where its become a cultural feat of its own, why are we so surprised that at least some of these people will have internalized issues about it? They don't have to be "a disgrace" or maliciously anti-black to hold some troubling views about their own identities. This odd necessity to hold black people accountable for not being pro black enough is not a productive way to discuss the ways racism has permeated Western culture, imo. I look at it in a similar way I'd look to a black woman who was straightening her hair to "assimilate" and look "professional" enough to hold a fucking job, because natural black hair is seen as "dirty" and unprofessional. Would it be okay to say that woman hates herself or her race?

And I'm not saying MJ is not a case of internalized racism, because by all accounts it very much seems so, but it's also only very recent when we've become more comfortable with black artists being as unapologetic as possible about loving themselves. We love black art, but we don't love black artists who seem too unwelcoming to white people, so we've forced them to morph themselves into the kind of black artists all people love because they use their culture to entertain and love their culture, but not too much so that it seems bothersome. Also, I feel like it's a pretty established notion that MJ was very likely (very) mentally ill, so I guess that's also important to remember when discussing his troublesome views around his cultural/racial identity.

Also, why would black people hold onto protecting MJ? I mean, look at it this way. Black people, as in black people in America especially, don't nearly have enough people who have achieved such insane amounts of success worldwide. And then you have someone like him, and you are proud, and more willing to overlook the bad things (especially before they were even as known as they are now). For a culture so thoroughly dehumanized over the centuries, I do understand the collective need to have "your" people that can bring you a unifying sense of pride. My 2 cents lol.

p.s. this was all said with my personal feelings about him set aside. personally i cannot bring myself to listen to his music anymore

I fully agree with you on the part about how some normal person who's suffering from internalised racism or sexism shouldn't be hammered because of it. It's indeed not productive to aggressively blame a woman, for instance, who works in a male dominated environment and might adopt behaviours that are rooted in the mentality of a patriarchal society so that she seems more appealing to her co-workers or boss and be more easily accepted by them.

But a person who's in the position of power and influence, a female or black politician or celebrity who young people might look up to and idolise. I don't believe the same applies do them. They shouldn't get to bow to such a problematic system out of the weakness of their mind and get away with it. They don't deserve to be where they are if they do.

Also it's one thing for people to fiercely stand by OJ, Cosby or MJ if we were still in 90s and the number of black celebrities were indeed kept to a low number due to the oppression of racism, but to do it now that there are several examples to choose from, ones who actually try to do right by their own people, sounds more like unreasonable stubbornness to me.

Also I do hope you understand that in the eyes of powerful white people, a black powerful person will still never be equal to a powerful white person. To somehow believe that black people in power are suddenly able to escape this cycle of racism that they grew up surrounded by just because they became famous - like idk man. Idk what to say.

Master Virgo wrote: ↑

November 28th, 2019, 11:59 am

Never understood why some black people would even claim or so aggressively defend a fella who tried his damn hardest to look like a white person.

What kind of a message it is for young black people that the king of pop who's black desperately wants to look attractive by white standards.

If it was the other way around I could understand, but doing that against your own kind who have been oppressed for years and have been told that they look inferior, and their different physical attributes have been mocked and cartoonized by the racist society that they were forced to live in...eh sorry but you were just a disgrace bro.

Edit: That video is hilarious btw. Thanks for making my day by posting it Nomis.

Master Virgo wrote: ↑

November 30th, 2019, 6:29 am

There you go, my point exactly.

“The unjustified ideas that Michael Jackson did not like being black, did not affirm his blackness, or did not feel pride in being a black man were unequivocally rebutted through his life. He disproved those ideas not only in his short films and in his music, but also in his interviews (which were often given internationally to black interviewers like Jesse Jackson and Oprah Winfrey), showing how much Jackson felt comfortable among people of his own ethnicity, who he clearly felt would be more sympathetic to him. The claim that Jackson purposely changed his skin was a complete fabrication that served to justify a racist assertion that any black man would desire to became white in the first place. This racist assertion is as old as Ben Jonson’s 1608 Masque of Blackness, which enacts the proverb of “turning the Ethiop white”, making a black person apparently white.”

“What Jackson work did, which was perhaps most controversial in America, was to show black people as a whole, and himself in particular, in positions of high status, which jarred greatly with the American culture of blacks as subjugated and segregated second-class citizens.”