A question for those who've seen it (I think Ant, Nomis and Anarchy?) that I've been puzzling since seeing it:
In regards to the ending,
What do you all make of the speech in the epilogue?
On one hand, Mother Suspirium is a necessary purging force in the coven that exposes the hypocrisy and disenfranchisement of the girls, as allegory for Berlin at that time historically and metaphorically and literally destroying antiquated power structures, in the coven and in Berlin, in the process. However, there seems to be a contradiction in how she "forgives" Kemper out of what seems like benevolence, but in reality is a "monstrous" and sad act. The final shot of the film shows a society that has forgotten, and is painted as heartbreaking.
I'm not sure what the movie is doing in these two seemingly opposing aspects of Mother Suspirium, where she is both revolutionary radical doing "good" while doing great evil to Kemper and preventing society from healing en masse. There seems to be a contradiction unless it's just showing she's part of the same evil power structure before just of a different kind? I'm not sure and tbh I don't know if Luca does either.
-Vader
I've come to a deeper understanding of this but would love to hear your take.
The doctor represented the patriarchal society that failed to protect the women they swore to care for, as opposed to the all-female, financially autonomous, matriarchal dance school. I appreciated that his character wasn’t cartoonishly simple - he actually cared about Anke and the two girls that went missing, but didn’t believe any of them until it was too late. One of the witches actually mentions this when they drag him to the ceremony,
The “male witness” thing has a similar thematic significance - even the ritual seems to have no significance unless witnessed by a man, a testament to the male-led society and it’s ineffectiveness. By contrast, we’re also shown the dangers of a matriarchal society as represented by the coven and the three “terrible mothers”, and specifically the deception and betrayal that exists between their ranks.
At the end, Susie (mother of sighs) recognizes that the doctor is not really their enemy, as he’s made an effort to help the women in his life (despite failing). There’s a certain kinship that exists between them, despite circumstance. I think this is why the doctor was played by Tilda Swinton - it adds significant thematic weight to his character to be played by a woman.
Interpreted this way, you can see that the film is about two sides struggling to work together despite horrendous circumstance, which also has a lot of thematic relevance to its setting (and the ballet school being directly across from the Berlin wall)
I enjoyed this take on the ending. As for the contradictions I am seeing this
Being brought up more and more on reddit. Etc. the logic of certain characters did get a bit confusing towards the end. I want to watch it again and really Digest everything.
Nomis---I did read your response and thanks for that quote Durden. I read Ant's response too, of course.
I'm just digesting. Reading interviews with David Kajganich and Luca, it seems they had very elaborate intentions here, and quite frankly I'm not sure most of it is actually in the text of the movie.
For instance this (super spoilery) quote:
“Halfway through editing the sequence I said to Thom Yorke and Walter Fasano, my editor, that we had to instill a moment of deep melancholy, because when you become, you are evolving into a new person, and you’re mourning the end,” Guadagnino explains. “It’s the death of the previous version of yourself, which is what happens in the movie. We wanted to create a bridge between this fierce horror and this very melancholic sadness.”
I was genuinely confused at
whether or not she was Mother Suspirium the entire time, or whether Susie had offered herself up to Mother Suspirium, and I thought it was meant to be confusing, but this quote above makes me even more confused.
I've never seen a movie so overly intertextual, literal and literate also try to be so opaque, dream-like and hypnotic and I'm not sure that balance is perfected.
The doctor represented the patriarchal society that failed to protect the women they swore to care for, as opposed to the all-female, financially autonomous, matriarchal dance school. I appreciated that his character wasn’t cartoonishly simple - he actually cared about Anke and the two girls that went missing, but didn’t believe any of them until it was too late. One of the witches actually mentions this when they drag him to the ceremony,
The “male witness” thing has a similar thematic significance - even the ritual seems to have no significance unless witnessed by a man, a testament to the male-led society and it’s ineffectiveness. By contrast, we’re also shown the dangers of a matriarchal society as represented by the coven and the three “terrible mothers”, and specifically the deception and betrayal that exists between their ranks.
At the end, Susie (mother of sighs) recognizes that the doctor is not really their enemy, as he’s made an effort to help the women in his life (despite failing). There’s a certain kinship that exists between them, despite circumstance. I think this is why the doctor was played by Tilda Swinton - it adds significant thematic weight to his character to be played by a woman.
Interpreted this way, you can see that the film is about two sides struggling to work together despite horrendous circumstance, which also has a lot of thematic relevance to its setting (and the ballet school being directly across from the Berlin wall)
I enjoyed this take on the ending. As for the contradictions I am seeing this
Being brought up more and more on reddit. Etc. the logic of certain characters did get a bit confusing towards the end. I want to watch it again and really Digest everything.
This is exactly what my friend said as soon as the movie ended.
Doctor being a representation of patriarchy and all.
I think the movie did an unconvincing job to portray it if that was the case. But I guess many people are buying this interpretation.
With the Doctor representing patriarchy, the way I see it is that he represents that because he doesn't believe women. With Patricia, he wrote off everything she would tell him as delusions (but to be fair, if someone came up to you and started talking about a coven of witches, you would have the same reaction too). And then one of the teachers screamed at him because he didn't believe his wife and didn't get his wife to safety fast enough before the arrests happened.
Not believing women and especially doctors not believing women is a pretty big element to the patriarchy. Other than that, that's where the doctor representing patriarchy ends.
As far as Susie being Mother Supirium, Susie's mother tells the priest who anoints her that Susie is her "sin." So I'm guessing Susie's mom may have made a deal with dark forces to have Susie or for some other benefit in with the promise that she will give Susie over to Mother Supirium. Remember how she's focused on Berlin in the childhood flashback? I think she was possessed by Supirium in childhood.
If anything in my post doesn't make sense, let me know for sure. I haven't really read any of the interviews and I'm still digesting this movie. I do plan on seeing it a second time if it comes to the AMC near me.
When I see it a second time, I think I'll pick up on a hell of a lot more details.
It will definitely stay in the top 10 I know that much lol
