Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017)

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I feel like I've been doing nothing but return service on this film and want to review it in a tick, but first....
Vader182 wrote:uh dude, respect your opinion and all but that's certainly an unambiguous moment of comic relief. All three times I saw it the audience laughed.

I think TLJ has loads of depth. Rey in the third act is not part of that.


-Vader
I agree... broadly speaking.
It doesn't work to the degree it should (there's so much else happening that I don't consider it a deal-breaker)
- I think there are various ingredients in there and I love that Rey is emblematic of the OT swashbuckling in this part,
but we don't really segue to it. I would be shocked if there weren't scenes of Rey escaping the Supremacy filmed.

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7212017 wrote:
m4st4 wrote:
But you went from ‘hahaha rocks’ to ‘haha rocks’
Pointing out the things that matter.
Of course they do. It shows the trivialization of events that actually occured. Let’s be precise because there is definitely a deliberate finese to what she says and how she says it.
We definitely needed a scene between destroyer and Falcon though. And Rey still deserved to get more from TLJ, despite being much better than Rey from TFA.

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ArmandFancypants wrote:I feel like I've been doing nothing but return service on this film and want to review it in a tick, but first....
Vader182 wrote:uh dude, respect your opinion and all but that's certainly an unambiguous moment of comic relief. All three times I saw it the audience laughed.

I think TLJ has loads of depth. Rey in the third act is not part of that.


-Vader
I agree... broadly speaking.
It doesn't work to the degree it should (there's so much else happening that I don't consider it a deal-breaker)
- I think there are various ingredients in there and I love that Rey is emblematic of the OT swashbuckling in this part,
but we don't really segue to it. I would be shocked if there weren't scenes of Rey escaping the Supremacy filmed.
Agree on that last point especially.

I also think..
it's sort of a missed opportunity. Armchair screenwriting is dangerous and Rian's a super smart dude and I have nothing but respect for him, BUT I thought it was perfectly setting up a match-cut trifcectra between Rey/Luke/Ren and Rey using the force to save herself and her friends, internalizing the best of Luke's lessons.

For me, it's less disappointment and frankly just surprise.

Surprised Rey wasn't at this low, broken-down point in the Falcon, surprised it wasn't her connection with the force that would ultimately redeem her... surprised it wasn't using the force to realize her friends were in trouble... surprised she doesn't whispering "...Luke.." to herself in an echo of Bespin... and surprised there weren't any "force-time" match-cuts with Ren and Luke. Odder still we don't get so much as a reaction shot for Luke's arrival, her master. She's not party to Luke's redemption at all. Instead she's suddenly a Jedi and darings do and cracking jokes. A strange return to the status quo.
moreover, on the topic of Rey's final moments...
Even in the final "force-time," Rey is held in "frame-within-a-frame" distance from Kylo Ren. He's given more shots, more screentime, and close-ups. The fact Rian thinks TLJ is Rey's movie is fucking insane. He literally devotes more time to Luke and Kylo Ren than Rey. Before reading Rian's comments, I thought it was obvious this was Ren's movie in the same movie Rey's was TFA. But he intended TLJ to be all about Rey.
@ M4, dude I'm pretty sure I understand what she's saying is a callback. It's an obvious one, and I've seen the movie three times. It's a comic-relief moment when
it should be a moment of anguish.
And Rey in TFA has a complete and cohesive arc. I get lots of people on NF don't connect with her character the way I do, though.


-Vader

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Having complete and cohesive arc has nothing to do with her character development, she has none in TFA. She has some in TLJ.

I connected with Rey in both movies because of Daisy Ridley, she elevates the material.

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I find Rey's arc in TFA more satisfying post-TLJ, and that's not by comparison, that's by context.

I'm much happier with a lot of TFA given the new context, frankly.

I think Johnson looooooves
knock-on effects, given that's entirely what the Finn/Rose story is meant to do, but also that Rey stokes both sides of the final conflict... Ren behaves like a spurned lover (there are two sides to "blow that piece of junk OUTTA THE SKY", it's Han AND Rey) and Luke is able to forgive himself (his second-last closeup is the best piece of acting in the saga. Period) but is that sufficient? Perhaps not. In spite of intentions I think Johnson has wound up with a true ensemble piece, I don't think anyone owns the movie and if they do, it's Kylo Ren who goes from cosplayer to Emperor. And a close second is Luke. If, by the end, Kylo rules the literal galaxy, Luke is astride the hearts and minds of it like a colossus. Rey, by comparison, accepts the baton and it's up to IX to take her somewhere.
I think if Rey has an an analogue it's, uh,
Palpatine, an indefatigable champion of one side of the Force who cannot be corrputed and sits outside the volatile Skywalker bloodline. And if Palpatine had something to do with the creation of that bloodline, I suspect Rey is going to be the one to end it

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m4st4 wrote:Having complete and cohesive arc has nothing to do with her character development, she has none in TFA. She has some in TLJ.

I connected with Rey in both movies because of Daisy Ridley, she elevates the material.
wow

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A love letter to Rey and why she's one of my favorite protagonists ever:
In The Force Awakens, she begins as a lonely, sad, lonely girl obsessed with her past and parents to a self-deluding detriment. She needs that delusion for comfort and control in her life. Whereas in ANH Luke wants nothing more than to run away from his family, Rey refuses to "leave" hers. Whereas Luke hates Tatooine, Rey feels safe on Jakku. She has a power, she has a calling, she has a promise of adventure, a call, but she's terrified of it because it means abandoning that sense of home and sense of family that exists only inside her mind. But by The Force Awakens' finale, she's accepted her need to evolve, her need for progress, her need for reality, and that reality means self-empowerment and to be an agent. Culminating around handing Luke that lightsaber, the greatest gesture of stepping into the unknown.

In the end, Rey isn't greatest threat isn't Kylo Ren or Stormtroopers, it's fear of her own power and freedom and agency. Those are powerful themes, themes I connect with very deeply and they universally tap into, I think, the cusp of adolescence to adulthood, the point and design of The Hero's Journey.

What The Last Jedi does so brilliantly, is it says "okay, now that I've accepted my entry into adulthood, who the fuck am I? She hopes Han will tell her, she hopes Luke will tell her, she seeks to be defined by her past and her parents, and ultimately she hopes to save Kylo Ren and in process of to save herself through his redemption. In one of the most revealing lines of dialogue in The Last Jedi, Rey says Kylo will be The Resistance's last hope, NOT herself, since Rey thinks she's nobody from nowhere. She sees herself in the cave since her greatest fear is that nobody can define her but herself, a crack in her vanity and self-mythologizing. And it's only in her failure to save Kylo Ren that she is able to confront and subsequently accept the identity she needs, the only identity she could ever have.

Rey's conflict is really the universal conflict of the self, adolescence to adulthood into early adulthood into finally becoming an adult. She understands her values--she's decent--she understands the world around her--she's attentive and brave and smart--she understands her enemies--but the one thing Rey doesn't understand is herself. I don't know about you guys, but Rey's internal battle and struggle in both movies is something I connect with more than I ever did with Luke times 1000. It's something very powerful.
Armand,

Despite your lack of love for TFA, are you bothered by the opposition of authorship between the two?

For example, I love most of the inividual innovations and subversion to TFA Johnson initiates. But I'm frankly quite bothered they're disparate voices in space that never synchronize.



-Vader

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Vader182 wrote:A love letter to Rey and why she's one of my favorite protagonists ever:
In The Force Awakens, she begins as a lonely, sad, lonely girl obsessed with her past and parents to a self-deluding detriment. She needs that delusion for comfort and control in her life. Whereas in ANH Luke wants nothing more than to run away from his family, Rey refuses to "leave" hers. Whereas Luke hates Tatooine, Rey feels safe on Jakku. She has a power, she has a calling, she has a promise of adventure, a call, but she's terrified of it because it means abandoning that sense of home and sense of family that exists only inside her mind. But by The Force Awakens' finale, she's accepted her need to evolve, her need for progress, her need for reality, and that reality means self-empowerment and to be an agent. Culminating around handing Luke that lightsaber, the greatest gesture of stepping into the unknown.

In the end, Rey isn't greatest threat isn't Kylo Ren or Stormtroopers, it's fear of her own power and freedom and agency. Those are powerful themes, themes I connect with very deeply and they universally tap into, I think, the cusp of adolescence to adulthood, the point and design of The Hero's Journey.

What The Last Jedi does so brilliantly, is it says "okay, now that I've accepted my entry into adulthood, who the fuck am I? She hopes Han will tell her, she hopes Luke will tell her, she seeks to be defined by her past and her parents, and ultimately she hopes to save Kylo Ren and in process of to save herself through his redemption. In one of the most revealing lines of dialogue in The Last Jedi, Rey says Kylo will be The Resistance's last hope, NOT herself, since Rey thinks she's nobody from nowhere. She sees herself in the cave since her greatest fear is that nobody can define her but herself, a crack in her vanity and self-mythologizing. And it's only in her failure to save Kylo Ren that she is able to confront and subsequently accept the identity she needs, the only identity she could ever have.

Rey's conflict is really the universal conflict of the self, adolescence to adulthood into early adulthood into finally becoming an adult. She understands her values--she's decent--she understands the world around her--she's attentive and brave and smart--she understands her enemies--but the one thing Rey doesn't understand is herself. I don't know about you guys, but Rey's internal battle and struggle in both movies is something I connect with more than I ever did with Luke times 1000. It's something very powerful.
-Vader
Image

actually, some of this stuff hits close to home quite a bit

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Vader182 wrote:uh dude, respect your opinion and all but that's certainly an unambiguous moment of comic relief. All three times I saw it the audience laughed.

I think TLJ has loads of depth. Rey in the third act is not part of that.


-Vader
So I don't know where I'm coming into this convo, but I interpreted that as
Rey understanding that sometimes using the force actually is as simple as moving rocks. So it's not so much comic relief as it is just irony. That's almost juxtaposed with an example of Luke using the force in a pretty huge way a few moments ago.

I think it's another way Johnson is trying to convey not just the depth but the breadth of the force. It's an answer to Yoda in Empire saying "the force is bigger than you think", by saying "well, sometimes it's just as simple as it seems."
Also the audiences in my theaters didn't laugh at that part, so ... I guess it's all anecdotal?

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This is already 90 million behind TFA domestically at the same amount of time after release. Really curious as to how much less it will make. If it someone makes $300 million less domestically, is that considered a bit of a flop? Just curious how they measure a success at the box office after TFA lol.

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