so like
on a side note
who was Snoke, anyway?
on a side note
who was Snoke, anyway?
Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017)
Just some dude.
Let's assume Virgo and Armand are correct and TLJ's text supports what they're saying. A question for them:
1.) Rey suffers and fails completely in every way she can.
2.) However, Rey is so strong a character these failures "set her free" and motivates her to "accept the call to adventure" once again.
3.) If so, doesn't that make her a shittier character and reinforce the worst aspects of her TFA characterization? Rey recovers from multiple failures and temptations, straight up torture and hard-hitting truths faster than I've had friends recover from a bad date. She's already problematically over-powered as a force user, doesn't that make her problematically over-powered as a person?
-Vader
1.) Rey suffers and fails completely in every way she can.
2.) However, Rey is so strong a character these failures "set her free" and motivates her to "accept the call to adventure" once again.
3.) If so, doesn't that make her a shittier character and reinforce the worst aspects of her TFA characterization? Rey recovers from multiple failures and temptations, straight up torture and hard-hitting truths faster than I've had friends recover from a bad date. She's already problematically over-powered as a force user, doesn't that make her problematically over-powered as a person?
-Vader
^which is why I don't like Rey at all
Posts: 55632
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Correct, Rey was OP from day one, needs a nerf but might be too late.
A hard-hitting fact that she had already strongly suspected to be the case. It never came to her as a surprise. She needed someone to throw that at her straight away. She needed to stop relying on someone else for help. People had to fail her, her own parents had to fail her so that she can become the inspiring figure that she herself so desperately needed from others.
If Rey and Ben are supposed to be the two sides of the same coin, then this is what separates them. One crushes under the weight of his parents and mentor's failure. The other triumphs and it becomes the driving force for her.
On another note people really need to get off Vader's case. And I'm saying that as another member not a moderator. The guy has every right to come here and criticise the film in detail the way he likes. This is so much different than someone like Batfan who constantly whines about the same basic stuff over and over. Vader has seen the film 10 times in less than 6 months. Clearly plenty of stuff about the film has fascinated him as well.£
If Rey and Ben are supposed to be the two sides of the same coin, then this is what separates them. One crushes under the weight of his parents and mentor's failure. The other triumphs and it becomes the driving force for her.
On another note people really need to get off Vader's case. And I'm saying that as another member not a moderator. The guy has every right to come here and criticise the film in detail the way he likes. This is so much different than someone like Batfan who constantly whines about the same basic stuff over and over. Vader has seen the film 10 times in less than 6 months. Clearly plenty of stuff about the film has fascinated him as well.£
^I would hope Vader is aware I was only taking the piss.
This is part of why I would argue that TLJ is actually a really good sequel to TFA because it embraces the raw materiel of what we are given with Rey, which is that she isn't overly sure that she has value and importance within this operatic saga. The last moment of that first film is her literally trying to hand off the baton again.
Her moment of emotional devastation comes after the cave (I've never felt so alone), and from that is birthed her agency for the remainder of the act, when she wants to have her Luke Skywalker moment but has a different version of the same realisation that Finn has, which is belief in a cause rather than something personal (likewise Kylo Ren is a supposedly ideological villain unlike... any of the others?)
Also I think Rey is the most powerful of the three Star Wars protagonists for a different reason, I don't think ability to use the Force is an RPG concept and has entirely to do more with how focused you are as an individual. Rey is the most self-reliant, tough-minded protagonist we have had in terms of action and decision precisely because of the scenario we find her in (I can talk at length about how the previous two trilogies are hugely informed by the scenarios we find each protagonist in). Rey is interesting to me now because she's distinct in this way, but I think many of the notes are still there - they're just being played in a different sequence. That's not overly well articulated but I suppose now I see the character differently. That's improved TFA for me considerably, anyway. How "powerful" characters are is literally the least important thing in Star Wars when it comes down to it. Characters talk about it incessantly, but is only really seen in effect scantly. Notably the prophecy about the great "vergence" in the Force is fulfilled by an old robot man throwing another old man down a chasm, rather than any great demonstration of power.
I'm working on a piece about this at the minute which will hopefully outline my thoughts more broadly, but I see Rey as functioning distinctly differently to the Skywalkers, which is that the challenges are inverted. Anakin and Luke undergo different crises of faith (Anakin in Jedi orthodoxy, Luke in his ability to trust the Force), but Rey's is a battle of self-worth. She has an extremely late acceptance of the call to adventure, which I feel is probably more a product of Abrams' long game bait-and-switch with Finn than anything, but she only really takes up the sword when she has no other recourse. It would be like if Luke discovered stormtroopers still at the Lars homestead and trying to evade them kicked off his adventure.Vader182 wrote: ↑August 29th, 2018, 1:56 pmLet's assume Virgo and Armand are correct and TLJ's text supports what they're saying. A question for them:
1.) Rey suffers and fails completely in every way she can.
2.) However, Rey is so strong a character these failures "set her free" and motivates her to "accept the call to adventure" once again.
3.) If so, doesn't that make her a shittier character and reinforce the worst aspects of her TFA characterization? Rey recovers from multiple failures and temptations, straight up torture and hard-hitting truths faster than I've had friends recover from a bad date. She's already problematically over-powered as a force user, doesn't that make her problematically over-powered as a person?
-Vader
This is part of why I would argue that TLJ is actually a really good sequel to TFA because it embraces the raw materiel of what we are given with Rey, which is that she isn't overly sure that she has value and importance within this operatic saga. The last moment of that first film is her literally trying to hand off the baton again.
Her moment of emotional devastation comes after the cave (I've never felt so alone), and from that is birthed her agency for the remainder of the act, when she wants to have her Luke Skywalker moment but has a different version of the same realisation that Finn has, which is belief in a cause rather than something personal (likewise Kylo Ren is a supposedly ideological villain unlike... any of the others?)
Also I think Rey is the most powerful of the three Star Wars protagonists for a different reason, I don't think ability to use the Force is an RPG concept and has entirely to do more with how focused you are as an individual. Rey is the most self-reliant, tough-minded protagonist we have had in terms of action and decision precisely because of the scenario we find her in (I can talk at length about how the previous two trilogies are hugely informed by the scenarios we find each protagonist in). Rey is interesting to me now because she's distinct in this way, but I think many of the notes are still there - they're just being played in a different sequence. That's not overly well articulated but I suppose now I see the character differently. That's improved TFA for me considerably, anyway. How "powerful" characters are is literally the least important thing in Star Wars when it comes down to it. Characters talk about it incessantly, but is only really seen in effect scantly. Notably the prophecy about the great "vergence" in the Force is fulfilled by an old robot man throwing another old man down a chasm, rather than any great demonstration of power.
I feel like people actually care more about who Snoke was/is now than they did prior to TLJ. Every general audience member I've encountered just assumed it'd be explained/revealed and didn't care. They only ended up actively caring who Snoke was and asking questions about him when TLJ threw him away like a rotten tuna sandwich.
I think people only cared about Snoke's backstory because they wanted another Emperor Palpatine. The decision to kill of Snoke was a fantastic choice because it solidified Kylo Ren as the big bad of the entire trilogy who is not going to given any redemption (I hope).
