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The 2008 mega success about Batman's attempts to defeat a criminal mastermind known only as the Joker.

Some people really underestimate how well written TDK is.

Posts: 1412
Muezzin wrote:More seriously...

The prologue introduces the Joker, but holds off revealing which of the clowns he is until the end of the scene.

Batman's introduction in the film pulls a similar fakeout with the copycat Batmen, until the real Batman is revealed.

I like that parallel.

The dialogue of the prologue was the only thing that bothered me. I felt like Nolan wasn't really demonstrating his literary prowess with it, just more giving standard dialogue that the general audience could kind of follow along with. It seemed almost campy and straight forward. But I think it was a smart choice with all things considered, I don't think Nolan wanted to confuse the audience within the first five minutes.

I much preferred the dialogue of TDKR's prologue, you really had to "pedal faster" in order to keep up with what was happening.
Posts: 45
Location: United Kingdom
Well, to be fair, most of the dialogue in TDK's prologue is spoken by Joker's thugs, who you wouldn't expect to be the most poetic of orators. I liked the bank manager's rant about the decay of even criminals' values and honour. And 'I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger' is brilliant.

With TDKR's prologue, the characters you're dealing with are

a CIA agent, a nuclear physicist and an enigmatic criminal mastermind


So it makes sense that all of the dialogue is a lot sharper.

Plus:

CIA: If I pull that off, will you die?

Bane: It would be extremely painful.

CIA: You're a big guy.

Bane: For you.


Epic droll win.
Posts: 1412
Muezzin wrote:Well, to be fair, most of the dialogue in TDK's prologue is spoken by Joker's thugs, who you wouldn't expect to be the most poetic of orators. I liked the bank manager's rant about the decay of even criminals' values and honour. And 'I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger' is brilliant.

With TDKR's prologue, the characters you're dealing with are

a CIA agent, a nuclear physicist and an enigmatic criminal mastermind


So it makes sense that all of the dialogue is a lot sharper.

Plus:

CIA: If I pull that off, will you die?

Bane: It would be extremely painful.

CIA: You're a big guy.

Bane: For you.


Epic droll win.

Yeah, all very true. What I did like about TDK's prologue was how he most likely destroyed people's expectations of how they were going to see the Joker. Most people were probably expecting an origin story, but as soon as that dialogue hits, the audience knows the Joker is fully formed, and it's pretty much anyone's ball game at that point, and we're already 2 minutes into the film. It took a lot of balls for Nolan to do it, and it worked wonderfully.
Posts: 45
Location: United Kingdom
MiracleSleeper wrote:Yeah, all very true. What I did like about TDK's prologue was how he most likely destroyed people's expectations of how they were going to see the Joker. Most people were probably expecting an origin story, but as soon as that dialogue hits, the audience knows the Joker is fully formed, and it's pretty much anyone's ball game at that point, and we're already 2 minutes into the film.

Reminds me of that Creative Screenwriting Magazine interview with Jonathan Nolan where he said that he'd like to think the Joker basically spontaneously came into existence the moment the audience first sees him waiting on the street.

It took a lot of balls for Nolan to do it, and it worked wonderfully.

Yeah, it's great how the audience is introduced to the Joker through hints from the thugs' dialogue, which again is direct, in-character, but never condescending.

'He thinks it can sit it out and still take a slice. I know why they call him the Joker'

'-So why do they call him the Joker? [By the way, that snappy transition was cool]

-I heard he wears makeup... To scare people. You know, warpaint.'

It's the little things like describing his makeup as 'warpaint' which subtly prepare the audience for this sort of hyper-realistic Joker.

I like that we know nothing of Joker's backstory in this film. Each 'why so serious' story he tells contradicts the others, which ties into 'The Killing Joke' multiple choice origin story. It's also refreshing to have a villain who is not at all sympathetic, yet is not at all two dimensional either. You need serious skill to pull off such boldness.
Posts: 5
Muezzin wrote:Very true.

It's brilliantly structured, and the dialogue is excellent throughout. Prime example:

The first lines of the movie are 'Three of a kind. Let's do this'. Great foreshadowing of the triumvirate of Batman, Dent and Gordon that will later dominate the narrative.

I love how Joker removes a clown mask to reveal his painted clown face.

Another thing I noticed was Wayne's forensic examination of the shattered bullet is juxtaposed with Reese's forensic investigation of Wayne Enterprise's paperwork.

The dialogue in general is intelligent and unpredictable, but its meaning is never unclear. You don't tend to see that level of sophistication in a lot of mainstream movies nowadays - too many films contain dialogue (and narrative for that matter) which equates clarity with spoon-feeding.

On the other hand, the dialogue in The Dark Knight is very direct when it comes to underlying themes, with the result that some people feel the film lacks subtext. I appreciate its boldness, however. At least the insights the characters share are thought-provoking.

You have explained us very well.


And the Joker is written (and performed) perfectly.
Posts: 15
TDK is real well written indeed.I just wish it was in the same setting like BB.
Posts: 15914
the problem is that the actors in the TDK prologue delivered it in a campy way

for some reason all the smaller principal actors resorted to acting as if they were in a comic book movie. I don't know if that was Nolan's intention (to make the Joker seem hyper real) or if they simply didnt realize the kind of movie Nolan was making, and he's not the type to do multiple takes on the smaller cast
Posts: 2255
Location: North Carolina
mchekhov wrote:the problem is that the actors in the TDK prologue delivered it in a campy way

for some reason all the smaller principal actors resorted to acting as if they were in a comic book movie. I don't know if that was Nolan's intention (to make the Joker seem hyper real) or if they simply didnt realize the kind of movie Nolan was making, and he's not the type to do multiple takes on the smaller cast


do you mind providing examples of what you mean by campy? I thought the dialogue and acting was much better in the TDK prologue compared to the TDKR prologue. The CIA guy dialogue was terrible as was his delivery. He came across as if he was trying way too hard to deliver those lines. The clowns in the TDK prologue did fine and you couldn't gather anything from their expressions considering they had masks on so I'm not sure how their acting could be considered campy.
Posts: 15914
Skyab23 wrote:
mchekhov wrote:the problem is that the actors in the TDK prologue delivered it in a campy way

for some reason all the smaller principal actors resorted to acting as if they were in a comic book movie. I don't know if that was Nolan's intention (to make the Joker seem hyper real) or if they simply didnt realize the kind of movie Nolan was making, and he's not the type to do multiple takes on the smaller cast


do you mind providing examples of what you mean by campy? I thought the dialogue and acting was much better in the TDK prologue compared to the TDKR prologue. The CIA guy dialogue was terrible as was his delivery. He came across as if he was trying way too hard to deliver those lines. The clowns in the TDK prologue did fine and you couldn't gather anything from their expressions considering they had masks on so I'm not sure how their acting could be considered campy.



all of the clowns delivered their dialogue camp

most of the mob bosses (the chechen, gambol) ..Eric Roberts is the only one who didnt fall for the trap

the hostages on the boats...pretty much everybody except the Big black prisoner


Nolan's pacing, and this type of acting from a majority of the smaller principal roles, keep this film from feeling REAL to me
Posts: 2255
Location: North Carolina
mchekhov wrote:
Skyab23 wrote:
do you mind providing examples of what you mean by campy? I thought the dialogue and acting was much better in the TDK prologue compared to the TDKR prologue. The CIA guy dialogue was terrible as was his delivery. He came across as if he was trying way too hard to deliver those lines. The clowns in the TDK prologue did fine and you couldn't gather anything from their expressions considering they had masks on so I'm not sure how their acting could be considered campy.



all of the clowns delivered their dialogue camp

most of the mob bosses (the chechen, gambol) ..Eric Roberts is the only one who didnt fall for the trap

the hostages on the boats...pretty much everybody except the Big black prisoner


Nolan's pacing, and this type of acting from a majority of the smaller principal roles, keep this film from feeling REAL to me


I totally am in agreement with you on some of the secondary roles like Gambol and the guy in the truck with Gordon...though Maroni did a good job...but you didn't state that in your original post you just stated the TDK prologue was campy, and I don't agree with that, but if you think that the clowns delivered campy dialogue, do you not think the TDKR dialogue was super campy, particularly from the CIA guy's lines and delivery?
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