Did the Joker planned it all out or...?

Christopher Nolan's 2008 mega success about Batman's attempts to defeat a criminal mastermind known only as the Joker.
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There is a perfect scene in a current comic book, I think either Red Robin or Gotham City Sirens, where Tim Drake catches Joker and calls him out on the fact that he always has a plan even when he tells them that he doesn't.

I'm gonna try to find that and scan it as soon as I do

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OVERMAN wrote:I reckon he just acted after the subsequent events of his own spontaneity, if that makes any sense ha ha


yeah....the big mystery about the universe is that when you try to plan things out, they never go your way...when you dont plan anything, they always do....i think the joker just went with the punches and improvised all the time...he wasnt scared by chaos and anarchy so he was comfortable deciding what to do on the spot because he could die any moment and not care because he already had his fun

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Smile wrote:Joker:
"Do I look like a guy with a plan? [...] I just Do things."

Everything he says though is a contradiction of what he says in previous scenes. Like the stories about his scars. I love that side of the character.

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Smile wrote:Joker:
"Do I look like a guy with a plan? [...] I just Do things."
I think also when the Joker says " Madness as you know is like Gravity all it needs is a little push! " he might be referring to the fact that while he may have had some plans for Gotham and Batman, when ever there is a situation that can be manipulated even if he hasnt planned for it he gravitates towards it because he enjoys what he does i.e. the scene with Detective Gerard Stephens, if Batman doesnt slam the Jokers head against the wall to create the piece of glass he uses on the Detective to get his "one phone call" then all his plans whatever they may be come to nothing because he cant escape.

I hope this made sense and I apologize if it didn't :think:

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I'll agree with Brendan. The Joker always had a plan. He just lied to everyone that he didn't.

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Yeah i think he always had a plan, but it was a plan to create chaos so he didn't really care if it got messed up as long as it provoked chaos.

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Jonas Agersø wrote:The Joker is a pretty spontaneous character, somethings he planned out. But many things he didn't.
Basically what you said. Nolan, staying true to the comic book, shows a Joker that's carefully and patiently plans out everything, but includes a lot of spontaneity along the way. It can be presumed that the Joker had all of this planned since we 1st heard of him in the final part of "Batman Begins". He was robbing mob banks and hiring a lot of criminals that either escaped from Arkham Asylum or randomly on the streets in order to bring his ultimate plan into fruition. So it was definitely all planned out. He intended to get the mob to hire him to get rid of Batman, but in reality, it was so he can have total control over the mob and take over Gotham. Batman was basically a pawn to his overall game plan. Harvey Dent was his ultimate experiment to prove that even the best can be turned.

So, it was all definitely planned out, but the joker had several alternative plan B's or C's and was capable to make adjustments on the fly.

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He was like a dog chasing cars, he wouldn't know what to do if he caught one...

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I've read a lot of responses on other boards that claim that Joker's complex plan, to get caught to get to Lau, was a huge plothole because it was so unbelievable in that everything had to go exactly as planned in order for it to go off without a hitch. I personally believe it adds a supernatural edge to the character. The Joker is a guy that always has a wild card up his sleeve, he's always many steps ahead, always able to get & do what he wants without many people catching on.

I've seen similar complaints about no one noticing the bombs on the ferries, how it's a plothole because we're never shown the boats loaded or guards bought off. It reminds me, actually, a lot of that BTAS episode "Christmas with The Joker" (as well as the first 2 Joker stories, among many more), where The Joker is able to turn a christmas tree into a get-away rocket without no one noticing; it's something that's never explained yet we except it. You could argue that we except something like that because it's a cartoon, but I believe we except it because it IS who The Joker is. He's always making these large extravagant plans and pulling them off without any effort (just look at how many times he's escaped from Arkham).

It's an aspect of the character that we've come to except, and even when dealing in a live-action film I don't think we ever question it. So even if The Joker did have a bunch of wildcards in his back pocket & was just simply making the "plan" up as he goes along (despite Gordon's statement), the idea of it all literally being part of the plan to begin with isn't a plothole at all. It's a testament to the mystery and power of The Joker, even in a real world setting.

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The spontaneity adds to the genius of the character and the story. The mere fact that we are discussing this is a testament to Heaths performance and the script itself.

On topic, I don't think you can solidly say what exactly was planned and what wasn't. In all of Nolans movies there is always room for discussion about a certain aspect (Inceptions Limbo, The Prestige's character relationship + motives), and anyone can chime in and give their thoughts without being wrong, and I think it's terrific. It's why I love Nolans films.

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