prince0gotham wrote: It kind of does tho with such assumptions we're starting to reach beyond what's really related or important for the movie. My point was that to the plot and the twist trick it wasn't important really if it's a clone or a real brother. All that was essential was that he used him as a double. The next important thing is why he wanted Angier and Tesla to meet and what his goal behind that was. How Tesla met Borden seems irrelevant to me and we can think of countless stories about that. Tesla might even be his father but there's no hints on that or anything else, although I know and you know there's nothing wrong just to fantasize about his past, but really, it doesn't change anything, that's why i think it's irrelevant. What is really essential is all there in the movie, that's why they show how Tesla and Angier meet, not Borden and Tesla

And as i said, whether he's cloned himself or just has a brother all it matters is that he just has a DOUBLE that he can use and that he wants Angier to meet Tesla so that his plan goes on into execution.

I agree 100%, and it sounds absolutely as if you're articulating my own thoughts better than myself. As I said originally, I have no problem with anyone interpreting it in either fashion, and see completely justifiable reasoning either way. I myself, believe he was a twin, but that is irrelevant.

Ha well thanks for the taps on the back, I myself am glad that I can discuss the movie with people that share the same views (one way or the other).

My point was that to the plot and the twist trick it wasn't important really if it's a clone or a real brother.

I disagree with the notion that it doesn't matter whether Borden is a set of twins or a set of clones. It degrades the themes and characters in the film if Borden is not a set of twins.

Borden understands the struggle of Chung Ling Soo because he himself also has to appear publicly as something he is not. Two people with different goals, values, and desires presented as one person in order to maintain a magic trick. And this is why it's so tragic. Only one of them is obsessed with maintaining the illusion of one person to perform the trick, and it results in both of them suffering greatly.

Borden as clones is also inconsistent with other things presented in the film. Bale's performance has some great subtle moments where you can see that he's actually acting as two different people, and Borden doesn't witness Tesla's show until after he has already done his transported man trick at least once for an audience.

George wrote:

My point was that to the plot and the twist trick it wasn't important really if it's a clone or a real brother.

I disagree with the notion that it doesn't matter whether Borden is a set of twins or a set of clones. It degrades the themes and characters in the film if Borden is not a set of twins.

Borden understands the struggle of Chung Ling Soo because he himself also has to appear publicly as something he is not. Two people with different goals, values, and desires presented as one person in order to maintain a magic trick. And this is why it's so tragic. Only one of them is obsessed with maintaining the illusion of one person to perform the trick, and it results in both of them suffering greatly.

Borden as clones is also inconsistent with other things presented in the film. Bale's performance has some great subtle moments where you can see that he's actually acting as two different people, and Borden doesn't witness Tesla's show until after he has already done his transported man trick at least once for an audience.

I'm on the bandwagon that it doesn't matter, and I fail to understand how it degrades the themes... and I think there are some assumptions in play for you that I haven't made, simply because I don’t see how they’re valid given what we’ve seen in the film. Again, I'm of the belief that they were born twins, so I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here. If your assumptions are just what you believe about clones, then that is what it is.. but the truth is, we don't know how clones would behave, and I don't believe you can assume that they wouldn't develop on their own, independent of each other in tought. More importantly, if you're trying to arrive at a definitve intent by the screenwriters, I don't think they've made any assumptions about the nature of clones and here's why:

You assume that if they're clones, they cannot be independent thinkers of each other, or have developed their own personalities... they must share the same desires, aspirations, etc. I don’t see why that is an absolute if one of them is a clone. Assuming the clone theory, we have no idea when the clone was created. He could have been very young, and life experience allowed them to develop divergent personalities of the same fundamental being. Our personalities aren't solely a product of our DNA, but of life experiences, IMO. So being a clone does not automatically mean that they think exactly alike or have to want the same things. They share a common history up until the moment they were cloned. At that moment, they became two distinct people, not one, and as life progressed, they became more and more distinct in their personalities. In essence, they became perfect twins at that point of creation, but after that they become a product of life’s experience, even if their lives remain heavily intertwined.

One may have become more obsessed with becoming a magician than the other, but both were absolutely committed to that life, and I don’t see how that fact means they must be twins. It seems probable to me that they probably both started out down that path with the same desire, and somewhere along the way, that changed for one of them. Perhaps it was when one of them met Sarah and saw an opportunity for a new aspect in his life… a family. To me, that’s a perfect example of how one develops in a different way than the other. What’s interesting, is to wonder if the other ‘twin’ was in the theater that day, would he have been the one to end up attracted to Sarah?.. because obviously a clone would think alike. If you assume they do think alike, the respect for each other’s interests, one loved magic, the other Sarah (to keep it simple), and they both did whatever they could to ensure they both got what they wanted out of life, because they perfectly understood why the other felt the way they did.

So Bale’s excellent and nuanced performance that you mention doesn’t really tell us whether they’re clones or twins. Much like The Joker in TDK, we meet the Borden Twins/clones as an absolute.. they’re fully formed as far as the film is concerned it really doesn’t matter which, because there is enough vagueness that you can decide that on your own…. much like you can decide on the Joker’s past in TDK.

The other piece you mention about Borden seeing Tesla’s show in the movie… we have no idea if that is his first time witnessing it or not. We have no idea when he met Tesla. As I said before, he could have known him a long time, and went to the show. They may be twins and he never met him face to face. His being there could have been its own form of misdirection. So, it’s not that you’re wrong, it’s that we don’t know. All we saw was him sitting in an audience at a show.

So yeah, I still think you can see it either way. Not trying to attack your position as much a just show that it really is wide open to interpretation.

George wrote:

My point was that to the plot and the twist trick it wasn't important really if it's a clone or a real brother.

I disagree with the notion that it doesn't matter whether Borden is a set of twins or a set of clones. It degrades the themes and characters in the film if Borden is not a set of twins.

Borden understands the struggle of Chung Ling Soo because he himself also has to appear publicly as something he is not. Two people with different goals, values, and desires presented as one person in order to maintain a magic trick. And this is why it's so tragic. Only one of them is obsessed with maintaining the illusion of one person to perform the trick, and it results in both of them suffering greatly.

Borden as clones is also inconsistent with other things presented in the film. Bale's performance has some great subtle moments where you can see that he's actually acting as two different people, and Borden doesn't witness Tesla's show until after he has already done his transported man trick at least once for an audience.

Well yeah, I never thought that him having a clone makes complete sense in the first place, but assumed that it's possible just for the sake of some people in this thread and in other threads who still think Borden and Fallon are clones (and for the sake that I might be missing something as well). But no, as you pointed out, he can't really be a clone, which I think I said in my first post here, but when I said that 'twins/clones -> doesn't matter' I guess I contradicted myself.

Therefore yes, it does matter because the second (the clone variant) shouldn't make sense.

However, if Borden and Fallon weren't noticed to act differently, then I believe it wouldn't have had any difference to the twist trick.

What makes me wonder is what differences did you actually notice apart from the women the brothers loved.

I think that's debatable.

1st: We saw Borden act controversially towards his wife. Namely guessing that it's because sometimes it's Fallon. If i remember right Fallon loved Sarah and his daughter and Borden loved Olivia. What one should notice here is that... the fact that Fallon treats his wife one way and Borden treated Fallon's wife in another way (he was rude to her, fake and impulsive towards her) this doesn't mean Borden and Fallon have different characters. Borden was just stuck on his duty with Sarah, who he didn't sincerely love, so it's safe to say that we can understand why he didn't have the unlimited patience either. In the meantime we see Borden loving and treating Olivia with kindness and sympathy (because he felt sorry for her cuz Angier only used her), while Fallon only wanted to use her in the first place, before he knew his brother is in love with her. We can see they're both equally cruel and diabolical towards each other's women, but also equally loving to their own.

Conclusion: Borden and Fallon's attitude towards their own beloveds was quite similar. Fallon and Borden's attitude towards EACH OTHER's beloveds was quite similar too. And for a reason. In other words they behaved the same way around the person they loved and they behaved the same way around the person that they didn't love. Having cleared that, then these 'differences' aren't really any differences that should give us enough reason to think that they had different characters.

2nd:

Only one of them is obsessed with maintaining the illusion of one person to perform the trick, and it results in both of them suffering greatly.

I think I disagree here. At least I don't believe there's proof. We can assume that it was Borden who told Angier the thing about sacrifice in relation to Chung Ling Soo's act. But then at the end we see Fallon talking about the same to Angier, who's dying in the same time. In other words we can see him agree with Borden. In addition to that I don't see how it's possible for Fallon to do all those things JUST to help Borden in his obsession without Fallon being obsessed with the same too. I mean ok, they're brothers, they're supposed to do favors for each other and help out, but all this? Really? Fallon's either equally obsessed or totally insane and just wondering how to ruin himself or what to do, like there's nothing really better to do. Or some other reasons? Nah. Somehow i seem to be in favor of the possibility that they both were equally obsessed. But do notice, I'm still not saying they're clones.

In point 1 and point two I've pointed out the things they're kinda equal in but one little line just bugs me and keeps rotating in my mind. I mean so far in pt1 and pt2 they're acting like clones but... When Angier performs The Real Transported man for the first time we see the brothers arguing. Actually one of them is arguing. We can't really tell if it's Borden or Fallon cuz we don't really know whose turn it is to be each of them. But we see one of em sitting on the desk staring at sketches and drawings, thinking or at least trying to think. And we see the other one yelling at him saying 'WHY CAN'T YOU OUTTHINK HIM???'. This might possibly mean that one of them is different, a thinker, a schemer, smarter, while the other one is the leader. If this is so then they are brothers and not clones. But on the otherside it might not mean that. He might just be saying that. However, even if they're clones, Borden is bound to be the leader, namely because he's the original and the other one's a copy. But that won't make them different in spirit, mind and soul. (tho that's debatable too, the only different thing inside their memory will be on which side of the machine each stood when the cloning happened [if they're clones that is], but before that they'll both remember that they both stepped into the machine, so this leader thing is also very unstable as an idea)

This is the only scene we see with both of em act differently in the same scene, while talking to each other. There's this other scene where they cut their fingers, the other one where they swap disguise and the one in prison, before execution, where they both cry and where Borden says to Fallon that he's sorry and that Fallon was right that they should both leave him alone to do his trick. This proves that Fallon was the one that said 'WHY CAN'T YOU OUTTHINK HIM???' then followed by the decision that 'We're done' and that they should really leave him alone. That means Fallon was the one that was yelling and was being agressive in that scene and Borden was the possible 'thinker', which pretty much makes Fallon the leader if that above-mentioned idea is right and if they're really much different while alone without anybody around. Anyway, that also means that if you're right then Borden's more obsessed because he couldn't help it but go and see Angier's new trick. Which also assumes that Fallon is more agressive in that one scene and then a murderer because he shoots Borden (even though he decided to 'go too far' just because he wanted revenge, which makes him different from Angier because the thing with Angier's wife was a mistake, but Angier framing Borden up was nothing but deliberate, which doesn't make Fallon look all that bad, just more brutal than Borden. Just a bit. I mean really, one can also debate on what the chances were of Fallon having the idea to break his promise and go to see the Real Transported Man. I'm sure that there wasn't much keeping him from doing it, he just decided not to, it's not that he wasn't tempted. And he had many good reasons after all Angier did, so.)


As you can see I'm trying to argue with myself in the search of the truth behind all this, but it's too complicated and depending on many uncertain factors. Most of the confusion comes out of the fact that:

We have Borden as himself. (1) (looks like Christian Bale)
We have Fallon as himself. (2) (looks like Christian Bale)
We also have Borden as Fallon with beard. (3) (This here is Christian Bale with a beard and a hat and a rapist coat)
We also have Fallon as Borden. (4) (looks like Christian Bale)
We also have Fallon as Fallon with beard. (5) (This here is Christian Bale with a beard and a hat and a rapist coat)


1, 2 and 4 look the same.
3 and 5 look the same.
1, 2 and 4 don't look like 3 and 5.

And that makes it a 3 to 2 in favor of Borden. We as the viewers are doomed to connect Fallon with the bearded molester-looking guy, while only the name connects him with it. We can't be sure who exactly spent most of the time doing Borden or Fallon. I mean, (if they're brothers) before they had the idea of using disguises they both looked the same all the time (maybe just avoiding showing themselves simultaneously in front of people). Just because the bearded guy was also named Fallon we mustn't really connect him to the real Fallon, at least not as much as we do.

Anyway this whole wall of text wasn't really to counter your last post but just debate and trying to work out some shit. Now I'm even MORE puzzled and can't really decide on whether they're really acting differently or not. It's not really that underlined and emphasized in the movie.

Very good post Robbman.

I might add that not only it's not sure that clones can be equal in thought and character (even if cloned as adults, not as people cloned then incubated and born and raised with different childhoods which is inevitable in reality), but it's also not sure whether 1 person can remain and keep acting as himself all the time throughout his life.

I mean... some people are very two-sided (ok, I'm like that so that's why I'm bringing out the topic). Not always in the bad way. And those two-sided people are not always showing their both sides.

No. Let me rephrase it.

All people are two-sided. The only difference between people is that there's such that show their both sides and such that suppress one of em.

I'm sure it happens to all of you. Actually, the bigger the extent up to which you show your both sides, the bigger the chance is of you not assuming or realizing that you do have 2 sides. Why? Because showing both sides is something impulsive and natural. The more natural it is the less fight there is between the boths sides of one person. The More fight there is though -> the more obvious it is and more probable of a person to know that he has two sides.

But anyway, the point was that... if 1 person can act differently and 'not seem like being himself', then why should clones act and behave equal at all, having in mind they're just an original and it's copy and ALSO having in mind that the original could've been two-sided himself in the first place? We're really talking about separate conscious beings. Ofcourse they will share a whole damn lot but there might be things that happen to one of them that can trigger different reactions and from then on -> make em act different.

In addition: I imagine that having a clone (a clone like in Prestige) would be an experience that would really tell you a lot about yourself. So then what if one of em was distracted and consumed with work and his obsession and then the other one had a bit of a passive period and had time to observe things from a distance. If Borden and Fallon are clones then at least one of them would've had a great opportunity of seeing the bigger picture and the complexity of being who they both were before the cloning. So if only one used that opportunity then that same one would've had a very good reason to start behaving differently, because he would be observing his former self continuing to act like they both/he did up to that point and notice the consequences and all the details. That would make anybody just STOP and THINK.


Sooo... yeah... I'm lost.

princeOgotham, you made me think of something I else I may not have been clear about .. George, your assumptions are completely cool if that's what you think.. I want to be clear about that.. I think the only thing I'm really disputing, in my ramblings, are that those assumptions are evident in the film.

I just like that everyone here is so cool about actually discussing stuff on a message board, and not attacking each other.. so maybe I'm just going a little overboard in making sure that my intent to not try to smear opinions is clear. :mrgreen:

Robbman wrote: I just like that everyone here is so cool about actually discussing stuff on a message board, and not attacking each other..

Ha well I don't picture the usual Nolan fan being a troll, troll-paranoic or a hater, which pretty much of a compliment to both Nolan fans and Nolan himself. So i guess that's why : )

The other piece you mention about Borden seeing Tesla’s show in the movie… we have no idea if that is his first time witnessing it or not.

The notion that you guys are putting forth about Borden being a set of clones really hinges upon this detail. And honestly I think the movie clearly presents it in a way where this was the first time Borden experienced Tesla's electricity. He only starts using the machine after this expo. If he had known tesla already, why not use it the first time? Plus, if he knew Tesla had cloning capability then why send Angier to him as a distraction? And why would there be any confusion to how Angier did his trick?

And the two brothers do show differences other than the way they treat the women. One brother can basically be generalized as the cockier one. Remember Cutter saying "some nights you just don't get it" in reference to the knot tying? One brother plays it safe with the knots while the other wants the riskier option.

f you're trying to arrive at a definitve intent by the screenwriters, I don't think they've made any assumptions about the nature of clones

Page 123 of the screenplay actually settles this whole debate:

His TWIN BROTHER, in identical stage clothes, uncurls himself
from the hidden compartment and hauls himself out.

Both Bordens are standing on the workbench. One brother is
gripping the other by his wrist and placing a CHISEL on his
finger.


Also when Angier clones himself (on page 125) he is referred to as ANOTHER ANGIER

Ah good, that really says it.

Haven't read the script myself so I wouldn't know tbh. Maybe I should have. That's why at first I was strongly supporting the idea that they are brothers, but then got lost in my own contemplations and riddled thoughts, because in order to be sure, I had to assume they actually COULD be clones, then deny this as possible with proof. And because I thought about it too much I confused and fooled myself even more.

But really... What I think I did there is... I approached both options as possible and looked for reasons why they could be possible. For example I did mention the thing about Fallon being cockier from that argument between him and Borden, which is a statement in favor of your opinion.

However, I'm gonna change my statement again to what my opinion was in the beginning. (having accepted that they are not clones with the script as a proof)

When I said that whether they're clones or whether they're twins, it's all the same to the twist-trick, you said that it does matter, because if they're clones they can't be different and because they are already shown as different in the movie. And chances are that they really are different. But in my last post I pointed out we cannot really be sure whether clones can't be different. But then someone would ask "Why did then Nolan insert hints on their differing characters?". That's a fact I can hardly get around. But still. Let's get back to the first line in the paragraph. It's all the same to the twist-trick.

If we summarize the message of the twist-trick in one sentence it would sound something like "This point in the movie is a mirror pointed towards the audience, which can see itself in the image of Angier, having done the same he did -> denied the obvious and eventually got fooled". The key here is Angier, not really Borden. Of the two Angier is the real antihero or even villain, he's the example of what one should not be, he's the one makin the mistakes and really getting out of control and he's the blind one and that blindness is what most of the movie revolves around starting with the first words in it. Now again I think that it doesn't really matter how more tragic the plot is with Borden and Fallon being brothers and not clones. At least not to the twist-trick. It matters to the movie as a whole, matters to the drama in it, but even the first time I mentioned it, I remember saying that it makes no difference when we speak about the twist-trick only. I mean ofc it would matter to the movie and how it's felt.

Although I did my part in the whole 'strafing away from the topic'. I blamed someone for saying something irrelevant to the twist-trick and then I was the one that started concentrating on the thing which i claimed as irrelevant in the first place which launched off this whole debate. Not that it wasn't fun, I love discussions, but yeah, I forgot my initial point and wrongly assumed that I should change it because other people's arguments made me hesitate and feel unsure about my theory.

So finally - no they're not clones, the script proves it, but still, that is not relevant to the twist-trick. Or should I say 'twist-mirror-trick'.