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Christopher's 2005 reboot of the Batman franchise that tells the origins of how Bruce Wayne became Batman.

What flaws do you see in Batman Begins.

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JimmyFraska wrote:1. He never intended on killing that man. At that point, the coin had two identical sides.


It still shows that he's loosing his marbles. No person in their right mind would point a gun to someone's face and threaten them for info.

And besides that, he went from a calm and controlled voice when he was talking to Rachel on the phone to a raging loon when he was talking to the kidnapped guy. That's not normal behavior.

He's a DA, let the guy go to jail and interrogate him there. Kidnapping him and putting a gun to his face isn't normal.
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chee wrote:
JimmyFraska wrote:1. He never intended on killing that man. At that point, the coin had two identical sides.


It still shows that he's loosing his marbles. No person in their right mind would point a gun to someone's face and threaten them for info.

And besides that, he went from a calm and controlled voice when he was talking to Rachel on the phone to a raging loon when he was talking to the kidnapped guy. That's not normal behavior.

He's a DA, let the guy go to jail and interrogate him there. Kidnapping him and putting a gun to his face isn't normal.

He knew Rachel was in danger, that's why he did it. I'd do it if I were him. Letting him get interrogated in jail would take a lot of time. Not to mention Batman's behavior (never ever letting a criminal die) isn't really sane either, having in mind all the damage it causes. He's forsaking the concept of the necessary evil just because there's something evil in it. No sane man does that. No man with fully functioning survival instincts at least.
Posts: 13625
Location: Florida
prince0gotham wrote:
chee wrote:
It still shows that he's loosing his marbles. No person in their right mind would point a gun to someone's face and threaten them for info.

And besides that, he went from a calm and controlled voice when he was talking to Rachel on the phone to a raging loon when he was talking to the kidnapped guy. That's not normal behavior.

He's a DA, let the guy go to jail and interrogate him there. Kidnapping him and putting a gun to his face isn't normal.

He knew Rachel was in danger, that's why he did it. I'd do it if I were him. Letting him get interrogated in jail would take a lot of time. Not to mention Batman's behavior (never ever letting a criminal die) isn't really sane either, having in mind all the damage it causes. He's forsaking the concept of the necessary evil just because there's something evil in it. No sane man does that. No man with fully functioning survival instincts at least.


No, it doesn't take a lot of time. Put him in an interrogation room, and talk to him. Didn't take long for them to put the Joker in there.

He's a DA that wants to obey the laws as much as possible. Then he kidnaps a guy in an ambulance, takes him to an abandoned building, calls his girlfriend with a calm voice, and then goes off his rocker and points a gun to his head. That's not survival, that's a hint at his unstable behavior.
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Well ofcourse it's unstable, but not insane and not 'not normal'. I bet most people out there would do a lot worse in a similar situation. He's still an exceptional character until he gets his face blown off. So practically up-till that point he may have shown signs of agression, but not of insane behavior. I mean Gordon pointed a gun at Batman before saying "I have to save Dent". Cmon.
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The only scene where Two Face really goes way over the line is when he points the gun at Gordon's kid. The rest of the time he's going after the crooks responsible for Rachel's death. So it's not like he suddenly transitions from complete angel to total psycho. It's only that final scene where he really loses it.
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steveportee wrote:The only scene where Two Face really goes way over the line is when he points the gun at Gordon's kid. The rest of the time he's going after the crooks responsible for Rachel's death. So it's not like he suddenly transitions from complete angel to total psycho. It's only that final scene where he really loses it.

Well what she meant is that killing somebody like that (be it a criminal who he knows has something to do with this) is against his own rules and that is extreme. But the pointing of the gun isn't really uncalled for. And it's also funny how he's breaking his own rules and playing new ones very strictly (the coin toss, allthough the way he killed the driver was maybe the 2nd most extreme thing he did after the accident, the first being threatening Gordon's family).
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prince0gotham wrote:Well ofcourse it's unstable, but not insane and not 'not normal'. I bet most people out there would do a lot worse in a similar situation. He's still an exceptional character until he gets his face blown off. So practically up-till that point he may have shown signs of agression, but not of insane behavior. I mean Gordon pointed a gun at Batman before saying "I have to save Dent". Cmon.


It's not insane behavior, but its definitely not normal behavior. Gordon pointed a gun at him while he was in a state of panic, Dent pointed a gun at the kidnapped guy after kidnapping him, driving for miles, and immediately after he talked to his girlfriend in a state of calmness.

If he just pointed a gun at him in the ambulance, while still in that state of chaos from the shooting, you'd have a point. But no, he did it after he was able to calm down and talk to his girlfriend.
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I think pointing a gun and threatening to kill a mentally disturbed person would qualify as "not normal". Maybe it's normal in the movies, but in real life, most responsible gov't officials don't shove guns in people's faces like that.

Clearly Harvey went a bit bonkers once he became Two Face. But he wasn't an angel before hand, and he wasn't a complete loon as Two Face, at least not until the final scene. Until then, he was really just taking his war against the mob to a new level. It's not like he was going around killing random innocents.
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chee wrote:
prince0gotham wrote:Well ofcourse it's unstable, but not insane and not 'not normal'. I bet most people out there would do a lot worse in a similar situation. He's still an exceptional character until he gets his face blown off. So practically up-till that point he may have shown signs of agression, but not of insane behavior. I mean Gordon pointed a gun at Batman before saying "I have to save Dent". Cmon.


It's not insane behavior, but its definitely not normal behavior. Gordon pointed a gun at him while he was in a state of panic, Dent pointed a gun at the kidnapped guy after kidnapping him, driving for miles, and immediately after he talked to his girlfriend in a state of calmness.

If he just pointed a gun at him in the ambulance, while still in that state of chaos from the shooting, you'd have a point. But no, he did it after he was able to calm down and talk to his girlfriend.

See, I don't think talking to Rachel really made him calmer that's all. You put too much accent on the shift of behavior, while that shift wasn't due to him not behaving normal (which in general isn't normal behavior, but as I said it wasn't uncalled for), it was because on the phone he was talking to his gf and right there on the street he was talking to an obviously crazy guy who wouldn't cough it up easily. One needs to be intimidating in order to achieve something here. In two words don't let that sudden shift feel so unnatural and don't assume that that shift is the real sign of the turn he's making on his path to Two-Face. The shift isn't what it gives it away. It's his eyes and breathing. I just saw the moment again to be sure. There was a spark of something not normal there, which he handled. But his actions weren't insane or not normal.

Rachel's life and that of many others was at stake. Getting that criminal into custody would've taken much more time one way or the other and not only that but there would've been distractions and obstacles for him to get something out of the guy.

They sent Joker to the department because he was captured by Gordon and Batman and ofcourse they wouldn't allow any fooling around. In addition to that they took him to the department because there was no hurry. Joker was the main guy and nobody knew anything about any additional threats. Therefore taking him to the department was something natural, because there wasn't any reason for anything else. In Dent's case there were a lot of reasons.

All I'm saying is, Dent was starting to behave unlike himself, yes, but his actions were needed. AND if he maybe knew that the kidnapped guy is a nutcase, maybe he wouldn't have expected to get anything out of him anyway, but he didn't.
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Location: Florida
I don't think those actions were needed, he could've taken him to the police office for interrogation, but he didn't. He risked himself getting criminal charges and letting his career fall apart when he could've done it by the books.

Right at the moment that Rachel tells him she'll be safe at Bruce's, that would've been the point where a normal person would put down the gun and drive him over to the police.
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