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Christopher's 2005 reboot of the Batman franchise that tells the origins of how Bruce Wayne became Batman.

What flaws do you see in Batman Begins.

Posts: 82
OVERMAN wrote:the second half which is Wayne as Batman back in Gotham fulfilling his Objective, fighting crime and all, something that I guess we've seen before,


Batman rescues the girl from the villain. They escape in the batmobile and a chase ensues. Batman brings the girl back to the batcave, where he explains to her that he needs her help to thwart the villain's chemical attack and then sedates her. Girl wakes up in a bed next to the tools provided by Batman to stop the villain...

I guess you could say we've seen it before ;)


In my opinion, the movie takes a turn for the worse the exact moment that the microwave machine is introduced. Everything leading up to that point in the film is nearly perfect. The evaporator itself doesn't bother me (Nolan always seems to have that improbable device...), it's just everything that happens from that point on almost feels like a different movie made by a different director. I cringe so much watching that last 3rd of the film.
Posts: 82
I actually just finished watching the movie...I've been meaning to watch it again for a while now. I really have problems with it throughout I think :think:

Even in the beginning of the movie, it just feels crammed and rushed. The editing almost literally makes it feel like you're watching it in fast forward some of the time. But at least it still feels like a Nolan quality film in the first half.

I always felt that they tried to stuff too much in the movie, but it stuck out more to me on this viewing. The origin, the league of shadows, the mob, Scarecrow, Ra's, Earle, relationships with Alfred, Rachel, his parents, Gordon. They couldn't afford to take their time with anything and the film suffers because of it.

The Dark Knight really makes Begins look like a pile of bat-dung, but it has its shining moments here and there.
Posts: 3179
Location: We can't stop here, this is Bat Country!
the movie is pretty solid I reckon, I mean is an origen film, we need to know how these characters became what we already knew... the film was about exploring something that has never been explored before, I already said that and as for the microwave machine, I didn't give it too much thought it was both an intelligent and a stupid decision to use that, but is not like it was a Macguffin or something like that, is a character based film and the machine is the least of our worries.
Posts: 9042
I don't know how you can say Batman Begins feels like it's stuffed with too much stuff, and then go on to praise the Dark Knight. The Dark Knight is the most jam packed, overstuffed movie I have ever seen.
Posts: 82
OVERMAN wrote:the film was about exploring something that has never been explored before, I already said that


When I read the above quote, I don't know if I'm misinterpreting your understanding of my original post, but I was being both literal and sarcastic when I said "I guess you could say we've seen that before." Literal because the sequence I described is right out of Tim Burton's 1989 Batman. Sarcastic because when you say that the Batman-in-action half of the film is familiar to the audience, it's an understatement.

steveportee wrote:I don't know how you can say Batman Begins feels like it's stuffed with too much stuff, and then go on to praise the Dark Knight. The Dark Knight is the most jam packed, overstuffed movie I have ever seen.


Have you seen Transformers 2? Pirates of the Caribbean sequels? Sorry, I digress...

You might actually be right in saying The Dark Knight has more stuff packed into it than Begins. The difference is that it works in TDK. There is a fluidity to the chaotic series of events. It feels like a big fat satisfying meal of an crime/action/thriller/drama, like a Scorsese movie or like Heat. Begins feels like each cut is packed shoulder to shoulder with no room to breath, even during low key moments.

One of my favorite scenes in the film is when Bruce confronts Falcone in the restaurant. This last time watching it I was disturbed at how they fly through it. I've come to appreciate how patience and letting a scene breathe can add weight and impact to it. Maybe it's because I just watched all 3 seasons of Breaking Bad, where they do it so well. But even when the movie came out I remember thinking they tried to accomplish too much and ended up accomplishing very little.

With TDK they had high ambitions and nailed it for the most part. There's always that argument against the treatment of Two-Face, but when I consider Harvey's symbolic function in the story rather than his realistic or emotional or fanboy pleasing functions, I have little complaints about what is otherwise considered to be a waste of his character.
Posts: 3179
Location: We can't stop here, this is Bat Country!
you need to have in mind that in the first movie they had to cover a large period of time in the life of the protagonist and if they showed all this stuff going on at once it's because in a situation like this they can't afford to leave the movie with plot holes and questions, it is supposed to be a pretty straightforward and they need to cover everyone's intentions and purpose on the film, I think they did well giving the audience a reason to believe and fully understand the world and story within the film, you may be the kind of guy who likes to see the scenes "breathe" believing it's for the sake of the story but sometimes you have to rough cut and sacrifice space and time for the same reason.
Posts: 48
Location: Atlanta, GA
Look at it this way:
Nolan wrote the first half of the film, Goyer wrote the second.
Posts: 11375
Location: Texas
Kyuubi no Kaiju wrote:Look at it this way:
Nolan wrote the first half of the film, Goyer wrote the second.



lol that's how it seems
Posts: 1618
wikoogle wrote:The Dark Knight was a perfect movie, with two minor caveats.
While the Joker recieved exceptional development and a fitting conclusion (one can simply assume that he is locked up in a maximum security prison), harvey dent/two face was not explored fully as a character.

The transition from Dent to Two Face was far too rapid. In the comic books, dent had a history of psychiatric problems that were confidential and thus unknown to anyone before he ever became two face. It made sense that he could go mad. But in the movie, it portrays a strong willed character, who just because the person he loved dies, abandons all logic and goes completely mad. That's not realistic character progression. A person doesn't simply go from sane to insane in an instant.

Two Face needs to come back in Batman 3. It makes perfect sense that Two Face was locked away at Arkham Asylam by Gordon without anyone's knowledge. If anyone found out that dent went crazy, the entire mob that was prosecuted by Dent could go free. Batman didn't check his pulse, he had no way to be sure that Dent was dead. There was no body shown at the memorial for Dent. So it makes perfect sense that Gordon would have gotten Dent the help he needs in Arkham while letting everyone think Dent is dead.
By bringing Dent back, introducing initially as a psych patient at Arkham, Nolan gets a chance to mention his confidential past where he did suffer from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder with psychotic breaks.

Also Two Face is way too intersting and way too important a charater in the batman mythos to have been killed off in less than a half hour. There is a lot of room in Two Faces development. In one two face story arc, he develops a third personality unknown to the first two, that of justice, to right all the wrongs in the world. That would make for a great story arc. Two Faces existence becoming known, the mob getting retrials only to be hunted by two face's third personality - justice, and batman and possibly even two face getting retribution would all make for a compelling story in the third film.

I disagree with the fact that the transition of Dent into Two-Face was too rapid:
1. If you watch the movie again then you will see that, even before Rachel dies, Dent is hesitating between killing the schizophrenic guy he caught. He tells him "If you don't answer my questions then I will let the Justice do with this coin" and then he goes with "heads or tails" either you're saved or you die. I think it was a very subtle and interesting way to show us that Dent wasn't a righteous man already there. Just like Batman he was wearing a mask and the public image he was showing wasn't exactly who he truely was. He was the white knight for the world but he wasn't really deep inside. And that's also why it was so easy for the Joker to make him change completely.
2. People who knew him, already called him Two-face before because most of the time he was playing with his coin and probably deciding what to do with its help.

I agree though that it might have been a bit early to kill him there. But well... It makes sens in the story. My main problem though was the coin (hope someon can help me :shifty: ). Is the coin double-faced or is it the same face on both sides? If it's the case, why does he have to throw his coin many times before telling someone that he should die? :think:

George wrote:The first hour of Batman Begins is vastly superior to the rest of the film. And it's not because of Katie Holmes and the little kid.
My main issue with the second half of the film mainly lies with the screenplay, which too often falls back on the norms of superhero films in both dialog and events. What starts out as an excellent drama turns into something relatively unchallenging and expected. And I think that's what really separates The Dark Knight from Batman Begins. The Dark Knight rarely panders and remains audacious the entire way through.

THIS! I also got bored a bit (mostly the first time I saw BB) the second part of the film. I also think Scarecrow wasn't such an impressive villain. Mostly if you compare him to the Joker in TDK!
Posts: 443
Batcat wrote:I disagree with the fact that the transition of Dent into Two-Face was too rapid:
1. If you watch the movie again then you will see that, even before Rachel dies, Dent is hesitating between killing the schizophrenic guy he caught. He tells him "If you don't answer my questions then I will let the Justice do with this coin" and then he goes with "heads or tails" either you're saved or you die. I think it was a very subtle and interesting way to show us that Dent wasn't a righteous man already there. Just like Batman he was wearing a mask and the public image he was showing wasn't exactly who he truely was. He was the white knight for the world but he wasn't really deep inside. And that's also why it was so easy for the Joker to make him change completely.
2. People who knew him, already called him Two-face before because most of the time he was playing with his coin and probably deciding what to do with its help.


1. He never intended on killing that man. At that point, the coin had two identical sides.

2. I assume he was called Two-Face because they didn't trust him and his 'perfect leader of society' image. Once again, he didn't use it all the time, it had two identical sides. Did you not catch that?
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