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Christopher's 2005 reboot of the Batman franchise that tells the origins of how Bruce Wayne became Batman.

What flaws do you see in Batman Begins.

Posts: 18
I had two main problems with Batman Begins. The whole giant microwave vaporizing water didn't make sense. It would vaporize people too, since we're like 70% water. There's no way that everyone near this massive microwave wouldn't just die outright. And also, league of shadows was not given a very good motivation for wanting to destroy Gotham, or atleast it wasn't explained that well imho.

The Dark Knight was a perfect movie, with two minor caveats.

While the Joker recieved exceptional development and a fitting conclusion (one can simply assume that he is locked up in a maximum security prison), harvey dent/two face was not explored fully as a character.

The transition from Dent to Two Face was far too rapid. In the comic books, dent had a history of psychiatric problems that were confidential and thus unknown to anyone before he ever became two face. It made sense that he could go mad. But in the movie, it portrays a strong willed character, who just because the person he loved dies, abandons all logic and goes completely mad. That's not realistic character progression. A person doesn't simply go from sane to insane in an instant.

Two Face needs to come back in Batman 3. It makes perfect sense that Two Face was locked away at Arkham Asylam by Gordon without anyone's knowledge. If anyone found out that dent went crazy, the entire mob that was prosecuted by Dent could go free. Batman didn't check his pulse, he had no way to be sure that Dent was dead. There was no body shown at the memorial for Dent. So it makes perfect sense that Gordon would have gotten Dent the help he needs in Arkham while letting everyone think Dent is dead.

By bringing Dent back, introducing initially as a psych patient at Arkham, Nolan gets a chance to mention his confidential past where he did suffer from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder with psychotic breaks.

Also Two Face is way too intersting and way too important a charater in the batman mythos to have been killed off in less than a half hour. There is a lot of room in Two Faces development. In one two face story arc, he develops a third personality unknown to the first two, that of justice, to right all the wrongs in the world. That would make for a great story arc. Two Faces existence becoming known, the mob getting retrials only to be hunted by two face's third personality - justice, and batman and possibly even two face getting retribution would all make for a compelling story in the third film.

Lastly, it seemed to me that in Batman Begins the league of assasins actual motivation for destroying was barely touched upon. This wasn't a big issue, as the league of shadows is no where near as major a part of the batman mythos as two face, but a bit more emphasis on the fact that they are essentially terrorists, who oppose technological progress or who wish to rid the world of all it's filth, and destroy the cities that are corrupt beyond repair, would have been good. If the league of shadows was to make a return in Batman 3, with their motivation further explored, it would make for a very fitting conclusion to the trilogy, and would make for a fantastic trilogy. Even ignoring the league of shadows entirely, and instead simply delving deeper into the Two Face storyline in the third film, would make for the greatest trilogy of all time, bar none.
Posts: 41
I think one of the weaknesses in both these films, as you put, are the motivations of each character. Although the Joker, is an exception to me, as he just is as Nolan intended.

I completely agree with your post, but those are the sort of things I can just look passed and appreciate the film for what it is. The biggest flaw for me is the editing / camera work during the action sequences which has been pretty much rectified during the sequel.

I wouldn't count on seeing Two Face in the third one, Nolan has confirmed outright that he is dead and not going to return. I wish he did have more screen time, but I have the feeling that The Dark Knight was more about Harvey Dent than Two Face.
wikoogle wrote:I had two main problems with Batman Begins. The whole giant microwave vaporizing water didn't make sense. It would vaporize people too, since we're like 70% water. There's no way that everyone near this massive microwave wouldn't just die outright.

It was made to only vaporize through the sewers and to the Mains.

wikoogle wrote:And also, league of shadows was not given a very good motivation for wanting to destroy Gotham, or atleast it wasn't explained that well imho.

I thought it was explained perfectly. To quote Ken Watanabe's character (whose real character name is unknown) as best as I can: "The city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice, it is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of The League of Shadows; it is one we have performed for centuries. Gotham must be destroyed." The League of Shadows believed that almost all of Gotham was ridiculed with corruption and that if it was completely destroyed and then built again, it would be as peaceful as it once was. "Like Constantinople or Rome before it."

wikoogle wrote:While the Joker recieved exceptional development and a fitting conclusion (one can simply assume that he is locked up in a maximum security prison), harvey dent/two face was not explored fully as a character.

I completely disagree. In The Dark Knight, I felt that his character was developed the most. We saw an honourable, decent man fall - that is all Harvey Dent/Two-Face needed to be in the film and he was portrayed in that way.

wikoogle wrote:The transition from Dent to Two Face was far too rapid. In the comic books, dent had a history of psychiatric problems that were confidential and thus unknown to anyone before he ever became two face. It made sense that he could go mad. But in the movie, it portrays a strong willed character, who just because the person he loved dies, abandons all logic and goes completely mad. That's not realistic character progression. A person doesn't simply go from sane to insane in an instant.

I'm guessing no one you have ever loved has past away. I have just superficially researched psychology and found that losing a loved one can lead to far more disastrous and dentrimental psychological problems than that displayed by Harvey Dent/Two-Face. And in the comic books, Ra's Al Ghul was immortal, Lucius Fox played a very minimal role in Bruce's life, Batman was pretty much illustrated as indestructable, Rachel was not Bruce's childhood friend and Alfred's last name was known as "Pennyworth". What I am saying is - the comic books don't mean squat, this is Christopher Nolan's incarnation of Batman and the characters in Batman's life, and, in my opinion, they are far superior to that of the traditional comics.

wikoogle wrote:Two Face needs to come back in Batman 3. It makes perfect sense that Two Face was locked away at Arkham Asylam by Gordon without anyone's knowledge. If anyone found out that dent went crazy, the entire mob that was prosecuted by Dent could go free. Batman didn't check his pulse, he had no way to be sure that Dent was dead. There was no body shown at the memorial for Dent. So it makes perfect sense that Gordon would have gotten Dent the help he needs in Arkham while letting everyone think Dent is dead.

I believe Nolan made an incredibly wise decision of killing off Harvey Dent, not just as a great way to end a magnificent piece of story-telling, but because there is no way Harvey Dent/Two-Face could have become a main villain for an entire film; the film would be incredibly dry and boring. And after the ending of The Dark Knight, many people will roll their eyes and sigh if Dent comes back in the next film. Nolan has already confirmed that Harvey Dent/Two-Face is dead, anyway, so that's a relief.

wikoogle wrote:By bringing Dent back, introducing initially as a psych patient at Arkham, Nolan gets a chance to mention his confidential past where he did suffer from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder with psychotic breaks.

That is in the comics, not in Nolan's incarnation.

wikoogle wrote:Also Two Face is way too intersting and way too important a charater in the batman mythos to have been killed off in less than a half hour. There is a lot of room in Two Faces development. In one two face story arc, he develops a third personality unknown to the first two, that of justice, to right all the wrongs in the world. That would make for a great story arc. Two Faces existence becoming known, the mob getting retrials only to be hunted by two face's third personality - justice, and batman and possibly even two face getting retribution would all make for a compelling story in the third film.

I'm sorry, but; no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

wikoogle wrote:but a bit more emphasis on the fact that they are essentially terrorists, who oppose technological progress or who wish to rid the world of all it's filth, and destroy the cities that are corrupt beyond repair, would have been good.

Why is more emphasis needed? You just explained everything that needed to be known about the League of Shadows.

wikoogle wrote:If the league of shadows was to make a return in Batman 3, with their motivation further explored, it would make for a very fitting conclusion to the trilogy, and would make for a fantastic trilogy. Even ignoring the league of shadows entirely, and instead simply delving deeper into the Two Face storyline in the third film, would make for the greatest trilogy of all time, bar none.

Once again, I'm sorry, but; no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Nebel wrote:The biggest flaw for me is the editing / camera work during the action sequences which has been pretty much rectified during the sequel.

The reason why Nolan shot and edited the action scenes as such, was to put the viewer in the point-of-view of a criminal, which I believe works effectively.
Posts: 1610
Location: Puerto Rico
wikoogle wrote:I had two main problems with Batman Begins. The whole giant microwave vaporizing water didn't make sense. It would vaporize people too, since we're like 70% water.


75% actually :)
Posts: 962
I know comic book fans will continue to whine about Harvey's passing, but I completely agree with Chris. Harvey's story in Nolan's incarnation is told in full. At the end, him losing Rachel is what matters as he underscores this when he proposed to Rachel the first time. Harvey goes through a transformation when the Joker comes to twist his mind and he runs loose on a rampage. And this isn't really about Harvey being a villain. It's still Harvey dark edge with the dial turned up, using a "I will personally bring out justice in a way that is fair" style. He's out there seeking personal justice. And with all that he has done, the way to go back from that has been shut. Harvey being a "main" villain is not necessary because the character has served its purpose. As Gordon and Batman say in the end, if Harvey is exposed, everything that the three of them have worked on would be undone and Gotham would be left at an even worse spot. Nolan's Harvey had to die at the end of the film. Him surviving undermines TDK as a film.

And while we're in the subject of TDK, I outlined my problems with it in another post...

Batman Begins' action sequences ChristopherNolanFan has said was done specifically because Chris wanted you to see the battle on the criminal's perspective. It also underscores Batman's combat skills being highly elusive and effective. Chris shoots with a purpose and some of it are not spelt out with dialogs and lines. Some of it is subconscious like in the way he shoots.

The microwave emitter is something I do not raise because frankly, I (and anyone else for that matter) do not know how it emits the intense microwave. No one knows how the machine operates and no one knows if there is say, calibration performed on the machine. Note, this is me just thinking within the constraints of the Batman film. At the end of the day, it's simply a plot device used to push the story forward to its climax, no more no less.

The flaw I would particularly say about Batman Begins and TDK is the fact that Alfred never seems to age. :lol:

The problem with fans and comic book (and book, for that matter) adaptations is that they continue to think that what is written in the original source is the only way it should happen on any and every medium of the material. Chris never does this. He reinterprets and tries to distill the same core elements in his own storytelling fashion. And for film fans, this does not mean Chris's films are the definitive Batman universe stories. They are interpretations from the source material. Just like other comic book writers choose to take the same 1940s Batman material and reinterpret to suit their own story.
Posts: 233
Location: Brazil
For me the jokes @ the wrong time. The fight edition even with this Nolan idea could have been done much better... But the story is waht really matters.
niniendowarrior wrote:The flaw I would particularly say about Batman Begins and TDK is the fact that Alfred never seems to age. :lol:

:lol: Nice!!! That's something that I never noticed.
Posts: 962
ChristopherNolanFan wrote:
niniendowarrior wrote:The flaw I would particularly say about Batman Begins and TDK is the fact that Alfred never seems to age. :lol:

:lol: Nice!!! That's something that I never noticed.

Yeah! I only thought about that after a few viewings of Batman Begins. From the young Bruce and Rachel up to the end of TDK, Alfred is the same old person. I wonder back in the time he was still serving in Burma, was he already that old looking? :lol:
Posts: 2281
Location: Ontario, Canada
Katie Holmes.

The one police officer at the end who points at Katie Holmes, says nothing, with a blank face, and whom the camera lingers on far too long. I labelled him "Pointing guy".

Looking in retrospective in a post-The Dark Knight world, a lot of Batman Begins seems almost cheesy in comparison. The cheesy one-liners (I'm blaming you Mr. Goyer), over-exposition of it's themes of fear. The whole idea of Batman being trained by ninjas is a bit silly when compared to The Dark Knight's heavier emphasis on realism and crime drama.

The dialogue in The Dark Knight was far improved, most obviously because of Jonah's influence. He really is a better writer than Goyer who can't help but insert those cheesy lines. The Dark Knight is more morally ambiguous, and thus more interesting, unlike Batman Begins which somewhat over-stated it's fear themes.

Otherwise, I loved the movie.
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